The Creation Account

[1dell]

I just hunted down some info on the Kenites the descendants of Cain who survived the flood. www.advweb.com/kw/misc/misc/kw_kenite.html

HERE ARE some scripts that refer to the kenites:

Num 24:22 Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive.

Jdg 1:16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which [lieth] in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

Jdg 4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, [which was] of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which [is] by Kedesh.

Jdg 4:17 Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for [there was] peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite.

Jdg 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

1dell said:

Qayin's descendants survived the flood sweety, so part of that is mute. Even then that doesn't explain why you do not see Adam as the beginning of Qayin's geneology, there is no rule that if you are cursed you don't make it in a geneology, because in truth, Adam and Eve were both cursed as well

[CoUrTnEy]

oh here's an another response i got:

The genealogy in Genesis 5 is only concerned with the godly line through to Noah. Cain's line is spoken of in Genesis 4.


just so you know- to that i asked- well then why is adam not mentioned in Cain's line?

[1dell]

Goodness what was the question? You said you asked them something, what is about something I said about Qayin not being in Adam's geneology and Adam not being in his?

CoUrTnEy said:

oh here's an another response i got:

The genealogy in Genesis 5 is only concerned with the godly line through to Noah. Cain's line is spoken of in Genesis 4.


just so you know- to that i asked- well then why is adam not mentioned in Cain's line?

[CoUrTnEy]

yep.. wanted to see what the christian answer was

1dell said:

Goodness what was the question? You said you asked them something, what is about something I said about Qayin not being in Adam's geneology and Adam not being in his?

[1dell]

Oh ok sweety, I already knew what the ansaar was. It was a rhetorical question really.

CoUrTnEy said:

yep.. wanted to see what the christian answer was

[KnaxemDead]

Let's do another take of Genesis 3:15.
The King James Version doesn't clarify who exactly is being referred to in this verse. This particular verse has many misinterpetations circulating throughout the three major religions, much of which are taken out of syntax. I will address the two popular explanations, rectifing them by properly translating it from Hebrew then paraphrasing into American langauge.

1. Judaism teaches that this is a prophecy which was fulfilled, between the two sons of Isaaq by his wife Rebekah, whose name is Esau and Jacob. The verse used to support this is...
Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob:

2. Christians teach this is the first promise of the Messiah: Jesus, the seed of the woman (Mary), destroyed the "head" or authority and power of Satan by His redemptive death on the cross. The cross is the second tree established by God whereby men might leave the government of death and darkness and go back into the government of life and light.


Barashith 3:15
Shiyth¹ 'Aybah Ishshah Zera Zera Shuwph Rosh² Shuwph 'Aqeb

Hatred will be set between woman's seed, offspring Cain and Abel, Cain will strike Abel's head. Abel will strike at Heel of Cain's foot.

When this verse is coupled with the following Chapter, Chapter 4 Verse 1:9
This 'Aybah' hatred did manifest between the two brothers Cain whose Hebrew name is Qayin Jealous. Abel pronounced Hebel (Hb) having it's root in the word for Vanity. Abel was to be the appointed seed, because he was 'respected' by the Lord, yet his life was taken by his brother. Seth becomes Cheif over the Tribe of Adamites. So Chapter 4 and 5 deals with two "Seeds".

Shiyth 'Aybah Ishshah Zera Zera Shuwph Rosh Shuwph 'Aqeb

Here we see in hebrew text usage of Rosh and Shiyth, which is Rashiyth "to begin" found as opening word to the Book of Genesis. Ba-Rashiyth. Cain was expelled his parents no longer recongized him, thus he had no mother or father, he was his own Man, So his genelogy would not include his two parents first, it started with him as 'The Beginning'.

[CoUrTnEy]

yeah well i dont know why and now you have peaked my curiousity.. so what is the answer and does it coincide with what derek just said??

1dell said:

Oh ok sweety, I already knew what the ansaar was. It was a rhetorical question really.

[kAHANyAH]

The following script : Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. is not only fulfilled in the story of Jacob and Esav but also Revelations 12 chp. which speaks on the woman, child caught unto the thronos, and the war between Michael and Shatan.

[1dell]

Here is the deal sweety, here is the skinny ansaar. Adam is not in Qayin's geneology because thats not his father. Qayin is not in Adam's geneology because he's not his son.

Dag, Courty, I wish you wouldn't have asked me about what Derek, said, I was gonna try and leave the dude alone for 1nce. BUT, since you did ask here is the deal.

I don't agree with his interpretation of the hebrew nor is the hebrew he presented complete. It looks like that hebrew you can find on blueletterbible.org www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1080937842-9575.html#15 where they give you the main words void of the actual conjugation and articles and sentence structure. I have the page here with me from my Interlinear bible and I will transliterate the hebrew myself:

Wa Aybah Ashyt B'ynakh Wa Byn Ha Ashah Wa Byn Z'Ra'akh Wa Byn Z'Ra'akh Hu'e Yshufakh Rash Wa Atah T'shufenu Ehq'b

Translated word for word it's this:

And Angst I set upon betwixt you and betwixt the woman and between your descendants and her descendants (also could be translated "female descendants") himself/it he will crush first and you will crush of our rear

AS you can see there are a lot of words that derek discluded and included.

Hatred will be set between woman's seed, offspring Cain and Abel, Cain will strike Abel's head. Abel will strike at Heel of Cain's foot.


This is definitely not talking about Qayin or Abel. And it's obvious to me who IHaWaH Alhiym is speaking to and who he's speaking about.

Just as N'kash seduced KHawah, he may very well have seduced Qayin by sending Khata'ah and enticed him to Murder his brother, thereby destroying both of Khawah's seed as to prevent this prophecy from coming to fruition. Because if one seed is cursed and the other is Dead, then he got it made for a minute.

There is no way this could be the Qayin (Possession/Belong/Spear/Weapon) and H'bel (breath/vapour) in being spoken of in this verse. Because they are both seed of the woman. Which gives me difficulty in even believing that Adam is any of their father, but I am still diliberating on that.

Disclaimer: By saying anything of this I am not putting down Derek's explaination of what happened...

[Master-9]

These are nice breakdowns
Yall need to write some books, we need moor Knowlegde writers in the world

Wadu

[KnaxemDead]

;DFirst off, Adam biologically fathered Qayin (Cain). It says so right in Genesis 4:1
Gen 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
This is exactly how it begins when speaking about the Geneology of Seth. Here we see that 'knew' is again implying a sexual encounter.
Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The notion that Adam isn't the father of Cain, perhaps fathered by the Satan is mention in THE LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE: FORGOTTEN BOOKS OF EDEN. This notion is not substantied or supported by the very book (Holy Bible) you said you stand on 1dell.

As far as my translation, you obviously overlooked the word 'PARAPHRASED'.
1.A restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words, often to clarify meaning.
2.The restatement of texts in other words as a studying or teaching device.

Literal translations would only frustrate the reader who is not aquainted with ancient biblical expressions that are mostly missed in literal translation. That's why as a teacher by leave of Allah and his Elohyim I have ability to make it clear as to who is being referred to in the scripture. Let's compare Translations

And Angst I set upon betwixt you and betwixt the woman and between your descendants and her descendants (also could be translated "female descendants") himself/it he will crush first and you will crush of our rear
Translated by 1dell

Hatred will be set between woman's seed, offspring Cain and Abel, Cain will strike Abel's head. Abel will strike at Heel of Cain's foot.
Paraphrased by Derek

To conclude, if you believe that this 'hatred' spoken in above verse is anybody else other than Cain and Abel Eve's offspring. Then you have a problem not with me but with The Bible itself. People misinterept this scripture as though God is speaking to the serpent, implying that the serpent has a physical seed 'zera'. Thus it was 1dells opinion that Cain was fathered by devil who had sexual relations with Eve. Then you have some christians who take this out of context and try to apply it to Jesus stomping on the serpent's head, with woman then becoming 'Mary'' instead of 'Hawwah' who the Lord is obviously mentioning. You have the Jews over here saying it's Jacob and Esau, yet Esau was a twin. Inotherwords they could have been identical or fraternal, nontheless they were twins. So the Genesis 3:15 is negated as it's referring to two different and distinct seeds.

So I would really like to see 1dell try to weasle his way out of this one. Ask 1dell who the 'woman' is exactly mention in Genesis 3:15, is it 'The Wife of Adam' or 'Mary' Mother of Jesus or is it 'Rebekah' Mother of Esau and Jacob?

Ask 1dell according to his translation of Genesis 3:15
What does it mean by,"I set upon betwixt you and betwixt the woman " Who is is the 'YOU' that God is referring too?

Ask 1dell according to his translation of Genesis 3:15, Did the All loving and compassionate LORD GOD put 'HATRED' between Eve's seed and the devil's seed, if so WHY?

As he 1dell put it so plainly, "And it's obvious to me (1dell) who IHaWaH Alhiym is speaking to and who he's speaking about". Perhaps he is right, it's obvious only to him. So maybe he would like to clarify it this go round and maybe answer COURTNEY's question.

[Master-9]

9 nuwaubian snaps, Damn!!!

[kAHANyAH]

Not true Knaxemdead. There is this thing in science, its very uncommon but a woman can have twins born by two different sperm donors. She says "I have gotten a man from the Lord" The Lord is Cain's paternal father. Adam father'd cain's twin Abel while the serpent [lord] father'd Cain. When it says "Adam knew his wife" it was refering to Abel, not Cain.

I didnt bother readin the rest of your missive. Just wanted to correct you on your first error in there. I will check the remainin portion of your post to make sure everything is ok in there.

KnaxemDead said:

;DFirst off, Adam biologically fathered Qayin (Cain). It says so right in Genesis 4:1
Gen 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
This is exactly how it begins when speaking about the Geneology of Seth. Here we see that 'knew' is again implying a sexual encounter.
Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

The notion that Adam isn't the father of Cain, perhaps fathered by the Satan is mention in THE LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE: FORGOTTEN BOOKS OF EDEN. This notion is not substantied or supported by the very book (Holy Bible) you said you stand on 1dell.

As far as my translation, you obviously overlooked the word 'PARAPHRASED'.
1.A restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words, often to clarify meaning.
2.The restatement of texts in other words as a studying or teaching device.

Literal translations would only frustrate the reader who is not aquainted with ancient biblical expressions that are mostly missed in literal translation. That's why as a teacher by leave of Allah and his Elohyim I have ability to make it clear as to who is being referred to in the scripture. Let's compare Translations

And Angst I set upon betwixt you and betwixt the woman and between your descendants and her descendants (also could be translated "female descendants") himself/it he will crush first and you will crush of our rear
Translated by 1dell

Hatred will be set between woman's seed, offspring Cain and Abel, Cain will strike Abel's head. Abel will strike at Heel of Cain's foot.
Paraphrased by Derek

To conclude, if you believe that this 'hatred' spoken in above verse is anybody else other than Cain and Abel Eve's offspring. Then you have a problem not with me but with The Bible itself. People misinterept this scripture as though God is speaking to the serpent, implying that the serpent has a physical seed 'zera'. Thus it was 1dells opinion that Cain was fathered by devil who had sexual relations with Eve. Then you have some christians who take this out of context and try to apply it to Jesus stomping on the serpent's head, with woman then becoming 'Mary'' instead of 'Hawwah' who the Lord is obviously mentioning. You have the Jews over here saying it's Jacob and Esau, yet Esau was a twin. Inotherwords they could have been identical or fraternal, nontheless they were twins. So the Genesis 3:15 is negated as it's referring to two different and distinct seeds.

So I would really like to see 1dell try to weasle his way out of this one. Ask 1dell who the 'woman' is exactly mention in Genesis 3:15, is it 'The Wife of Adam' or 'Mary' Mother of Jesus or is it 'Rebekah' Mother of Esau and Jacob?

Ask 1dell according to his translation of Genesis 3:15
What does it mean by,"I set upon betwixt you and betwixt the woman " Who is is the 'YOU' that God is referring too?

Ask 1dell according to his translation of Genesis 3:15, Did the All loving and compassionate LORD GOD put 'HATRED' between Eve's seed and the devil's seed, if so WHY?

As he 1dell put it so plainly, "And it's obvious to me (1dell) who IHaWaH Alhiym is speaking to and who he's speaking about". Perhaps he is right, it's obvious only to him. So maybe he would like to clarify it this go round and maybe answer COURTNEY's question.

[1dell]

Ask 1dell? Why don't you ask me Derek, All I see is you trying to save face from your poor translation/paraphrase and your lack of providing the ENTIRE hebrew passage of the word but leaning and depending solely on the blueletterbible.

It wasn't even that kind of party, I wasn't trying to insult you but you are obviously trying to insult me, which is cool. But I would rather we wrestle with the info rather than taking person pockshots, but if that's what you wanna do I can do that with the best of them.

I am curious, where did I say that Satan was Qayin's father? I just got finished saying that Qayin and H'bel were seed of the woman. By that I am implying that if the woman has both children how can one someone else's seed and the other be her seed if they came from the same womb? She produce 2 children and they are not her seed? doesn't make sense bro

What you did by your "paraphrase" (even a paraphrase has to stay within the integral confines of the translation) was try to manipulate the verse to say what it is you are wanting it to say. I kept it pure it's obvious he is speaking to N'kash whom you like to call serpent. You say he's talking to the woman? Well lets look at all the scriptures in question:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

hmm. So he starts off talking to N'kash in verse 14 then in verse 15 he CONTINUES to speak to the N'kash which is why I made the And bold, you convieniently left out the word and in your "paraphrase" only someone with an twisted agenda would do that. THEN in verse 16 we have the words that were recorded to have been spoken to the Woman. It's right there bro and it was easy.

Instead of assuming what it is I believe why don't you just ask me. You ansaared your own question, when you copied the verse of KHawah's birth announcement of Qayin when she said "I have gotten a man with the help of IHaWaH" Now explain that to me. But I know you won't cuz you ain't even reading all this to begin with.

It's all good, as for your other questions. I will ansaar them one by one as I always do, but later because I have someone waiting on me in a chatroom far far away.

[kAHANyAH]

damn! yall both missing the boat! the serpent is the father, the biological father at that! of Cain. Why do you think the curse of conception was laid upon Eve ? Here's why!...
(dont y'all read the jewish law ? )

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.