The Creation Account

[CoUrTnEy]

I had heard someone mention on this forum or another thread on illuzion about there being two different creation stories.. I found this info on that issue:

Some scholars have suggested that Genesis 1 and 2 are different creation storeis placed side by side. The structure of chapter 2 does not support this theory. Verses 1-3 complete the recounting of the seven days of creation; verses 4-7 in Hebrew are one long sentence summarizing God's creative activity. A more detailed description follows the creation of the man (w 7, 15-17), of the garden in which the man and woman would live (w 8-14), and of the woman who was to be his "helper" (w 18-25). the word "history" (lit. "generations" ) is elsewhere used to introduce genealogical lines (Gen 5:1; 10:1). the name of the Creator (Heb. Elohim) is here joined to His covenant name (Heb. Yah-weh) and translated "Lord God," making clear that the great Sovereign of the universe and the covenant God of Israel are one.

[1dell]

Sounds about right courtney, the only thing is, one is the creation of the solar system, while the other is a creation of the Forest of Eden.

People must think the hebrews were complete idiots or something. I don't get it. Who would need 2 different creation stories.

CoUrTnEy said:

I had heard someone mention on this forum or another thread on illuzion about there being two different creation stories.. I found this info on that issue:

Some scholars have suggested that Genesis 1 and 2 are different creation storeis placed side by side. The structure of chapter 2 does not support this theory. Verses 1-3 complete the recounting of the seven days of creation; verses 4-7 in Hebrew are one long sentence summarizing God's creative activity. A more detailed description follows the creation of the man (w 7, 15-17), of the garden in which the man and woman would live (w 8-14), and of the woman who was to be his "helper" (w 18-25). the word "history" (lit. "generations" ) is elsewhere used to introduce genealogical lines (Gen 5:1; 10:1). the name of the Creator (Heb. Elohim) is here joined to His covenant name (Heb. Yah-weh) and translated "Lord God," making clear that the great Sovereign of the universe and the covenant God of Israel are one.

[CoUrTnEy]

Well 1dell I agree with that last statement.. you would have to be totally stupid to knowingly put two different creation stories in the Bible- that would imply that one or both is not true.. and that would totally not make sense when they were putting together a book inspired by God..

1dell said:

Sounds about right courtney, the only thing is, one is the creation of the solar system, while the other is a creation of the Forest of Eden.

People must think the hebrews were complete idiots or something. I don't get it. Who would need 2 different creation stories.

[kAHANyAH]

this is a christian section but forgive me courtney for introducing some hebrew kabala into here ;-).

Two creation epics relating to the two sets of law tablets Moshe recieved. The first set which corresponds to the first creation were destroyed my Moshe in the mt. In qabala this first creation is known as the qliphoth or the kings of edom before there were any kings in the days of Israel. The reason the first world [creation] was destroyed , it could not contain the pure light particles which came down from G-d. The second creation was the creation of Israel or the world of balance.

In the genesis, the story of eden is the world destroyed and the story of the male and female is the balanced creation.

[KnaxemDead]

It was me, KnaxemDead, who wrote that, here is what I wrote. It's not that they (OT writers) who attribute the writing of these scriptures to Moses, didn't take from two different sources, they saw it as the same Deity and these text and tablets as part of the mother scripture.

There are two creations stories mention in Genesis Chapter 1 and Chapter 2. They were copied from two different sources. Chapter 1 is from Egyptian text, Chapter 2 is from Shumerian tablets.

Gen 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Old testament writer tells us that there is a succession, a course of history concerning the heavens themselves by using the hebrew word toledaw 'generations'. It would help the reader to know that the OT writer isn't speaking of creation in the sense of something from nothing (nil). That 'In the Beginning' hebrew word Barashith focus on a 'specific time' when earth was going through a cyclic of dark skies and flooding. The OT writers logged changing of time by star appearances and passing of generations.

Now to get to recouncil both Egyptian and Shumerian account we read in Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.

One must note the use of the word Field in hebrew its Sawdee. Today that name is Saudi as in Saudi Arabia which isn't even arabic it was grafted into syriac language. OT writer is not speaking here of the entire planet being populated with plant life and animal life, but a particular location which is to become known as GAN (Garden of Delight), where this male being ADAM is to be fashioned. It goes on to tell you how this enclosed garden, which is set apart from outer field, how life was transported and grew there, how the purpose of Man was to cultivate this infertile land (till the ground).

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every
living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

Out of the ground (adamah). This is telling you that these beast, fowl and were taken from different terrority placed in Saudi.

So first chapter speaks of replenishing of the whole earth, then Genesis speaks of particular field which Lord himself planted and gave to man to have domain over.

KnaxemDead

[kAHANyAH]

what you say Knaxem is very plausible - the two accts. may have been known in the shumerian and kemetian cultures. Notice I say KNOWN which does not IMPLY the hebrews TOOK the story from those cultures. Kina like math - 2+2 = 4. If I stumble unto that truth on my own does it mean I stole it from some university or something ?

[KnaxemDead]

Shumerian Creation is inscribed on Seven Tablets, called Enuma Elish, that is equalivent to Seven Days of Creation. The Scripture tells us that on the Sixth Day Adam was created, you can go to Sixth Tablet and get more details of this event.

Enuma Elish, Sixth Tablet.
That which he( Murduq) had conceived in his heart he imparted unto him:
My blood will I take and bone will I fashion
I will make man, that man may..(broken fragment)
I will create man who shall inhabit the earth.

When you get to the Seventh Tablet it picks up who planted that garden calls Murduq, "O Asari, [Marduk] "Bestower of planting," "Founder of sowing"
"Creator of grain and plants," "who caused the green herb to spring up!"

I will save you the time to read the Enuma Elish yourself. However, justice that the Bible brings us since we have discovered earlier tablets belonging to the mother scripture (Um Kitaab) is that their broken fragments, bible has condensed most of those earlier stories and helps to fill. Surely these OT writers possibly had complete copies.

[kAHANyAH]

Again youre citing universal principles [sacred 7] as if there is an original earth source. These are kosmic laws. Because both the hebrew and shumu speak of the sacred 7 does not mean one copied from the other. All of these laws are found in the course of the stars [pleiades; seven daughters].

MEN LOOK TO THE STARS FOR ANSWERS.

KnaxemDead said:

Shumerian Creation is inscribed on Seven Tablets, called Enuma Elish, that is equalivent to Seven Days of Creation. The Scripture tells us that on the Sixth Day Adam was created, you can go to Sixth Tablet and get more details of this event.

Enuma Elish, Sixth Tablet.
That which he( Murduq) had conceived in his heart he imparted unto him:
My blood will I take and bone will I fashion
I will make man, that man may..(broken fragment)
I will create man who shall inhabit the earth.

When you get to the Seventh Tablet it picks up who planted that garden calls Murduq, "O Asari, [Marduk] "Bestower of planting," "Founder of sowing"
"Creator of grain and plants," "who caused the green herb to spring up!"

I will save you the time to read the Enuma Elish yourself. However, justice that the Bible brings us since we have discovered earlier tablets belonging to the mother scripture (Um Kitaab) is that their broken fragments, bible has condensed most of those earlier stories and helps to fill. Surely these OT writers possibly had complete copies.

[KnaxemDead]

They copied as most cultures did, knowledge from a source, which we will call for now 'Mother Scripture' Umm Kitabu. What the Biblical writers wrote in about 777 BCE was actually T'nakh condensing these stories from papyrus text and akkadian tablets, in return making them theirs by overlaying it with their history. You have Pa, Pau, Paut, which is same as saying El, Eloh and Elohin, Elohim. So you have the Torah which is to tort, or twisting of two stories. As earlier in Christian forum I stated 'doublets' before. Quraan is 'Two Readings' itself. All one has to do is retrace the winding steps just like DNA helix, this sequencing code to get back to the source. It's no mystery that hebrew grammer is coded just like the 4 parts that make up DNA itself. Anyway I am out of time to go into further detail about this. Let's pick it up later tonight.

[kAHANyAH]

kewl, look forward to furthering the discourse. Also it is my understanding, the scriptures were all read from the stars by the sages [3 wise men one example of this]

[1dell]

Derek, I actually have very little to protest in your thread, I just figured I would interject with my own bit from previous study. My words of course are in bold.

It was me, KnaxemDead, who wrote that, here is what I wrote. It's not that they (OT writers) who attribute the writing of these scriptures to Moses, didn't take from two different sources, they saw it as the same Deity and these text and tablets as part of the mother scripture.

This I have a problem with. The constant accusation of the hebrews taking or stealing from other sources. ESPECIALLY from sources that they found abominable. They would never see these deities in like kind with IHaWaH god of their Fathers Abram, Itzkhaq, and Ya'aqob. Even when they tried they were STAUNCHLY rebuked and punished by Moshe:

Exd 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron.

Exd 32:4 And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exd 32:5 And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD.

Exd 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Exd 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted [themselves]:

Exd 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exd 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:

Exd 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Exd 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

It just doesn't jive for them to look for Egypt or babylon as their spiritual tutors when they had direct access to IHaWaH themselves and for 40 years were under his direct intervention and guidance.

Moshe learn many things on the mountain with the Most High, I don't see why people can't real eyes that He received this information directly from the Most High. We already know that Moshe received the Torah from IHaWaH written by the finger of God:

Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

There are as many creation stories as there are cultures on this planet and many of them are similar. I don't know why the Hebrews are accused of plagiarizm. Oh yeah I DO know why, because if someone can discredit the foundations of the bible it make it easier to discredit the rest. And why would someone want to discredit the bible? Mainly because it's the source of the most popular religions on the planet. Who is the main enemy of the Deity of the Hebrews? You guested it, the race of Shatanites (satan and nem) I notice no other religion gets the opposition that Judaism or that Christianity gets. There is something to be said for that. It's an old war still being fought.

Here the Hebrews were strictly commanded to forsake the influences of the Egyptians and the Canaanites:

18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

It would make absolutely no sense for them to not do after the doings of the egyptians but then copy their creation events.

As for Babylon, The only connection is 1) The founder of their race Abraham was from Ur in the land of the Chaldees:

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Asking Abram to leave all that he had. This man was asked to leave his Father's house (his identity) His Kindred (his culture) and his country (his nationality). With any of that would come even the religious system one lives by. IHaWaH PERSONALLY guided this man and made him a priest according to a new system. There was no need to take from a system that even their Founding Father was told to reject.

There are two creations stories mention in Genesis Chapter 1 and Chapter 2. They were copied from two different sources. Chapter 1 is from Egyptian text, Chapter 2 is from Shumerian tablets.

see above response. I would also like to add that people often times claim that they copied from these supposed text but never mention the text. I would interested in knowing exactly what texts we are talking about. I could claim they stole from the Hopi indian's version, and that will sound good until we get the actual text in front of us and see how truly ridiculous these claims are. I am curious, what papyrus, what tablet, what scroll are we talking about? I mean normally we are given resources to look up but this time we are given mere speculation and no resources. I would like to read these text (sigh, already have) but I am curious as to what texts YOU are refering to Derek. I am geniunely interested in interacting with these texts and even posting them for all to see here.

Gen 2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Old testament writer tells us that there is a succession, a course of history concerning the heavens themselves by using the hebrew word toledaw 'generations'. It would help the reader to know that the OT writer isn't speaking of creation in the sense of something from nothing (nil). That 'In the Beginning' hebrew word Barashith focus on a 'specific time' when earth was going through a cyclic of dark skies and flooding. The OT writers logged changing of time by star appearances and passing of generations.

I must disagree with this. Because Gen 2:4 actually deals with the issues in the preceeding verses. I must say this, the bible was NOT written in chapters and verses it was one book like we have today. So this is ALLL on flowing body of text. So what sense would it make to put back to back creation stories? This verse you mention is actually where the canonizers of the bible should have ended chapter one. because chapter up to 2:4 are "The history of the heavens and the earth when they were created IN THE DAY that IHaWaH ALHIYM/elohiym made the earth and the heavens.

Notice some things about this verse:
Generations is the word Tol'dah here are it's meanS:
1) descendants, results, proceedings, generations, genealogies
a) account of men and their descendants
1) genealogical list of one's descendants
2) one's contemporaries
3) course of history (of creation etc)
b) begetting or account of heaven (metaph)

It's better to give ALL the definitions to allow people to make up their own mind. To give them an overall sense of the possibility of the word. So the Word Tol'dah is speaking of the history of creation as well as the progenitors of life on this planet. By that I mean the first Man, the first beast, the first fish, the first bird, etc. Let's use an example:
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

the seeds within itself, is dealing with generations. I could say moor about this but it will come up in my read the entire bible study in the Tome Cypher. But the way the creation is written WE KNOW for a fact that these are not 7 24 hour days.

Genesis 1:1 is speaking of Creation ex nihilo (out of nothing) there is actually some time that passes between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. In the beginning is in the Beginning. Is there a time before the beginning? I don't think so. Thats why I strongly disagree with your paragraph. And there is no connection betwixt this and star appearances. No where is a star appearence mention in the entire old testament. There word star appears in the entire old testament 2 times and it's not even speaking of constellations:

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Amo 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Then you have Yosef mentioning the 12 stars and the sun and the moon but that was symbology from a dream that dealt with his brothers and his mother and father.

[kAHANyAH]

Okay lets deal wit this step by step...

The mother scripture is not egyptian papyrus because the format is different - based in HIERO-GLYPH. So we can knock that out of the picture of "mother scripture". I wanna make sure we're clear on this. You agree egyptian format is not SCRIPTURE ?

KnaxemDead said:

They copied as most cultures did, knowledge from a source, which we will call for now 'Mother Scripture' Umm Kitabu. What the Biblical writers wrote in about 777 BCE was actually T'nakh condensing these stories from papyrus text and akkadian tablets, in return making them theirs by overlaying it with their history. You have Pa, Pau, Paut, which is same as saying El, Eloh and Elohin, Elohim. So you have the Torah which is to tort, or twisting of two stories. As earlier in Christian forum I stated 'doublets' before. Quraan is 'Two Readings' itself. All one has to do is retrace the winding steps just like DNA helix, this sequencing code to get back to the source. It's no mystery that hebrew grammer is coded just like the 4 parts that make up DNA itself. Anyway I am out of time to go into further detail about this. Let's pick it up later tonight.

[1dell]

Now to get to recouncil both Egyptian and Shumerian account we read in Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.

Ok You have cited a sumerian text the enuma elisha, which I will deal with later. But what of the Egyptian texts that they supposedly had stolen from? What papyri can you refer us to?

One must note the use of the word Field in hebrew its Sawdee. Today that name is Saudi as in Saudi Arabia which isn't even arabic it was grafted into syriac language. OT writer is not speaking here of the entire planet being populated with plant life and animal life, but a particular location which is to become known as GAN (Garden of Delight), where this male being ADAM is to be fashioned. It goes on to tell you how this enclosed garden, which is set apart from outer field, how life was transported and grew there, how the purpose of Man was to cultivate this infertile land (till the ground).

Ok, I'll bite my tongue, but this type of stuff makes me angry right here. First of all the hebrew word for "field" is NOT Sawdee!!! You are purposely trying to manipulate the text. The hebrew word for field is Sadeh!!! We do NOT need the W in Sawdee anyway, it would have been moor accurate if you would have said Sahdee which is still wrong beause the word is Sadeh. You did that purposedly so that the scripture could fit with the doctrine you are trying to pass off. You are hoping that people will be deceived into believe that Sawdee is actually supposed to be pronounced Saudi. Not happening bru! the word is spelled Sin Dalet Heh in other words S-D-H how do we get teh AW sound out of that? Where is the EE? nowhere! if it WAS Sadee it would be translated "MY FIELD" because when there is an I (which gets the EE sound) at the END of a word thats the personal pronoun for MY. According to ancient Hebrew S-D-H would be pronounced S'd'h or Sedeh. What you are saying is not correct.

The Writer IS speaking of not just the ENTIRE universe but also the earth and heaven local and heaven distant in the FIRST chapter. Now the 2nd chapter from 2:5 and down is speaking of the garden/Forest of Eden (and by saying forest I am NOT saying the the word for garden is forest translated. I will explain that in another study). That is what most of these scholars of folly do, they think that Gen 2 is about the same creation account. That I agree with you on, this IS the creation of the garden of Eden but NOT Gen chapter 1 Thats speaking of our entire dimension.

You said: which is to become known as GAN (Garden of Delight), where this male being ADAM is to be fashioned.

Actually that is very incorrect, what you are saying is that God created adam from the soils of the Garden of Eden. Nothing could be further from the truth. Lets read:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

3:23 After they funked up in the Forest of Eden, then he evicted them and put them BACK INTO THE LAND from where ADAM was TAKEN. THEN verse 24: HE DROVE ADAM OUT AND PLACED HIM IN THE EAST of the garden. FROM WHENCE HE CAME. so in other words, Adam was NOT created in the Forest of Eden, he was created a land EAST of eden. IHaWaH made the man go west.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every
living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

Out of the ground (adamah). This is telling you that these beast, fowl and were taken from different terrority placed in Saudi.

NOw that we know that Sawdee is REALLY Sadeh or S'd'h, this just aint jiving. But I agree that there were beasts and fowl that were created IN the garden. BUT that si NOT all the animal classifications! So this is NOT dealing with ALL of life on this planet. In Genesis 1:24 we see classification of animals that are NOT mentioned in 2:19. WE see Living Creatures: Cattle, CREEPING THING THEN we see Beast of the earth. This is how we know after THOROUGHT detail oriented study that these are different accounts.

So first chapter speaks of replenishing of the whole earth, then Genesis speaks of particular field which Lord himself planted and gave to man to have domain over.

I agree to an extent, that genesis 1:2-2:4 is speaking of a replenishing, But Genesis 1:1 is creation ex nihilo. I disagree that the entire creation account is speaking of saudi arabia or one central location. That doesn't fly in the context you are conveying.

[kAHANyAH]

1dell i think he merely spelt it phoenetically but he is correct the words are both inter-related. I can agree the arabia area had a key role in the creation . Aint by mistake these fields are the fields of OIL - a key factor in consecration.

[1dell]

Dayum, I thought we finally had a name of an egyptian text until I realized that kitabu aint nothing but the word Kitab which in Arabic and Hindi mean Book. LOL!

kAH said:

Okay lets deal wit this step by step...

The mother scripture is not egyptian papyrus because the format is different - based in HIERO-GLYPH. So we can knock that out of the picture of "mother scripture". I wanna make sure we're clear on this. You agree egyptian format is not SCRIPTURE ?