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Post by LadyC on May 5, 2004 9:58:18 GMT -5
uhhh, kah... he cursed them. he did not kill them. he cursed them in the name of the Lord, and God brought the she-bear out of the woods after the children.
gosh, you should have stuck to the story in deuteronomy where God commanded His people to annihilate the enemy's entire city, including the women and children. at least that would have been a more debatable argument LOL!!!
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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 5, 2004 10:15:01 GMT -5
the mind is amazing.. i just looked back at the scripture that was put up and i never realized that bears were involved.. why? because of how he put part of it in bold and i totally misunderstood what that sentence was saying.. now looking back i understand.. and then looking again at the definition i dont find it hard to believe that they could've been chased away and their clothes torn.. maybe/ maybe not.. and it could be a coincidence that the bears came out at that time.. just because one event follows another does not mean that they have a direct causation relationship to each other each and every time.. this is one of those many instances i have spoken of that their is evidence either way.. and no one will know for sure until.................. uhhh, kah... he cursed them. he did not kill them. he cursed them in the name of the Lord, and God brought the she-bear out of the woods after the children. gosh, you should have stuck to the story in deuteronomy where God commanded His people to annihilate the enemy's entire city, including the women and children. at least that would have been a more debatable argument LOL!!! |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 11:32:27 GMT -5
LadyC, the scripture speaks for itself my dear. I wonder how he cursed those children. Perhaps he was able to call the bear , get its attention and have the bear sic on those poor innocent children. Hmmmm... What ya think ? Kina reminds me of this grown adult, as a kid on the block me and a couple of friends of mine use to taunt him. Until finally one day while we were all chilling on a stoop there was this stray dog on the block. You know what that old man did - he started cussin us , callin on some religious names then some how was able to call the dog's attention to us, and ran and jumped on a car. The next thing us kids new the dog made a dash for us. I guess the dog thought we were the ones teasin it. I GOT BIT!  . Looks like the old man called a curse on us! PUTS THE BIBLE STORY OF ELISHA IN PERSPECTIVE, DONT YA THINK! Makes it more realistic without the gobbledegook commonly used to give explanation for miracles. In either case the scripture SPEAKS VOLUME. BTW..., im still waiting for you to address the deuteronomy story. Looking foward to reading your response on deuteronomy. Oh! and before I forget, I will be posting tons of more blood gore and guts scripture for ya to analyze.  uhhh, kah... he cursed them. he did not kill them. he cursed them in the name of the Lord, and God brought the she-bear out of the woods after the children. gosh, you should have stuck to the story in deuteronomy where God commanded His people to annihilate the enemy's entire city, including the women and children. at least that would have been a more debatable argument LOL!!! |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 11:33:58 GMT -5
Courtney my dear, youre are trying too hard, way too hard. What you accuse me of doing , you seem to conveniently do yourself (reading too much into it as you say). Tell ya what, will do you a solid again and give you the original hebraic word from which the translators used "tare". The hebrew puts the word "tare" in proper perspective. Letting you know exactly which of the definitions associated with tare was intended. And this should end the debate on said matter... The word is Baqi which means - 1) to split, cleave, break open, divide, break through, rip up, break up, tear. Here's the point I was attempting to show. What we are to get from the story is the state of mind of a prophet of God to wish harm on children and being justified by G-d in that he saw the curse come to fruition. the mind is amazing.. i just looked back at the scripture that was put up and i never realized that bears were involved.. why? because of how he put part of it in bold and i totally misunderstood what that sentence was saying.. now looking back i understand.. and then looking again at the definition i dont find it hard to believe that they could've been chased away and their clothes torn.. maybe/ maybe not.. and it could be a coincidence that the bears came out at that time.. just because one event follows another does not mean that they have a direct causation relationship to each other each and every time.. this is one of those many instances i have spoken of that their is evidence either way.. and no one will know for sure until.................. |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 12:05:17 GMT -5
courtney listen, see what you wrote here. I can dig that. Youre looking at interpreting the holy script. from a meta-physical point of view. Thats all good sis. However , I am tryin get a point across at LadyC. Lets say we accept your rule of thumb by applying metaphysical interpretation to scripture, then LadyC would have to interpret all them "kill" and "death" and "harm" and "curse" scriptures we find in the qaran meta-physically also. Get my drift ? Whats GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDERhmmm. interesting side note- i just looked at the link you gave for that definition. look at this definition of tares: 1.Any of various weedy plants of the genus Vicia, especially the common vetch.
2.Any of several weedy plants that grow in grain fields.
3.tares An unwelcome or objectional element. Tare has a recurring theme in looking at the definitions- violence.. but when i read that other definition that i posted above i had an epiphany.. perhaps in "cursing" them the statement "And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." was not what he did but what he said as he was cursing them.. calling them "weeds" or a "bad/objectional element" and not necessarily killing them at all.. Please understand im not sure which is right.. but just playin devil's advocate  And dont think i deny there is violence in Christianity's past either. |
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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 5, 2004 14:21:36 GMT -5
right and dont think for a second that i dont agree with you about there being violent overtones and actions in many religions (including christianity).. i was simply giving a different way to look at that scripture.. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that there have been more deaths related to "holy" wars than to any other kind.. in my honest opinion, i believe that is so because religious beliefs are such a matter of the heart to people.. naturally you get a violent response when people think you have somehow tread on that.. courtney listen, see what you wrote here. I can dig that. Youre looking at interpreting the holy script. from a meta-physical point of view. Thats all good sis. However , I am tryin get a point across at LadyC. Lets say we accept your rule of thumb by applying metaphysical interpretation to scripture, then LadyC would have to interpret all them "kill" and "death" and "harm" and "curse" scriptures we find in the qaran meta-physically also. Get my drift ? Whats GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER |
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Post by LadyC on May 5, 2004 15:42:32 GMT -5
i already DID address the deuteronomy story. i suggested you check to make sure i was actually explaining the one in that book, and said i'd doublecheck later, didn't i? bottom line is still that God didn't command us to go out and slaughter people on the basis of their religion. the q'ran does.
look, it's been a long night with little sleep. my darling husband (a trucker) was supposed to be home at 8 pm or therabouts yesterday, and his cell phone was dead and he didn't bother to find a payphone to let me know he was ok. when i posted earlier this morning, i was STILL up, and had just found out he was alive and well.
i've told you to feel free to continue arguing, but that i was bowing out of the conversation. i'm doing so now, not because i can't defend my position, because i have several Bibles around me and can easily look up passages and do so.... but i'm backing out of this discussion because it is bearing no fruit. you won't change my mind on this, and i won't change yours. it's not worth arguing over.
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 16:34:48 GMT -5
- To be honest, it matters not if you accept. I want to make sure the matter is clear and let the record show the truth thereof. At no time did you address the Deuteronomy passage. Let me quote the scripture I am referring to. Maybe it will joggle your memory...
Deu 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
Deu 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, [and] utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deu 7:3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Deu 7:4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
- As you can see the christian G-d delivers an indigenous people into the hands of his chosen solely because these people were pagan worshippers. The children of Israel waged war on a people because their religion was different. So you see, what you accuse the qaran of doing, your very book the bible bades christians also do.
- Also, there is no argument here as you suggest. What I find here, atleast on my part - strictly productive, healthy debate. Many who will come to the board, into this forum can and will benefit from the wisdom espoused in these threads.
- Please do not think it is a waste. Much fruit has been born here. I give liberally without expectation. I've already demonstrated thru scripture commands from G-d given unto his chosen to expel and destroy indigenous people just for being pagan'ers or in layman's term - of a different religion/ideology. And this is the same accusation many christians make against muslims. What an irony dont you think ?
- Once again , let me re-iterate this is not about changing your heart. The ultimate gain from the discourse is the establishing of fact for the many who will view these missives.
Peace LadyC. i already DID address the deuteronomy story. i suggested you check to make sure i was actually explaining the one in that book, and said i'd doublecheck later, didn't i? bottom line is still that God didn't command us to go out and slaughter people on the basis of their religion. the q'ran does. look, it's been a long night with little sleep. my darling husband (a trucker) was supposed to be home at 8 pm or therabouts yesterday, and his cell phone was dead and he didn't bother to find a payphone to let me know he was ok. when i posted earlier this morning, i was STILL up, and had just found out he was alive and well. i've told you to feel free to continue arguing, but that i was bowing out of the conversation. i'm doing so now, not because i can't defend my position, because i have several Bibles around me and can easily look up passages and do so.... but i'm backing out of this discussion because it is bearing no fruit. you won't change my mind on this, and i won't change yours. it's not worth arguing over. - TEXT
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Master-9
Apprentice
You can't stop NUWAUBU!!!!
Posts: 172
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Post by Master-9 on May 5, 2004 19:07:18 GMT -5
mind tellin me what ramadan is? The Month of Ramadaan is the month that Al Qur'aan came down to earth. In following the laws of Moses, If the Torah fell to the ground, the whole congragation would fast for 30 days. Thus, when Kalimah Allah(The Word of AllaH) came to eath through the angel Gebriel to Ahmad(Comfortor) aka Mustafa Muhammad Alimen(PBUH), the Islaamic Hebrews(called Muslims today) were odered to fast. To put it short, it is the month of fasting(during day light hours). It is apart of the 5 pillars of Al Islaam |
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Post by LadyC on May 5, 2004 19:53:36 GMT -5
for the record, yes i did address the deuteronomy story, it just got confused between me thinking you were referring to it by mistake of the isaiah one. of all the battles in the Bible, this is the only one in which they were commanded to kill even the women and children and sheep that i can recall. i've got a "date" to watch a movie with my daughter right now, so i'll ask you to review the story and tell me if i'm remembering correctly or not (and i'll doublecheck later). as the story goes, if i'm remembering right, they didn't do as commanded. they ended up taking some of the women and children as their own. the society with whom they had battled was so denegrated with immorality that it "infected" even the children, and brought all manner of havoc on God's people as a result. so the answer would be because God, in his infinite wisdom and foresite, saw what would become of His people if they took the women and children as spoilage from the war, and instructed them to destroy them all. as for the sheep, beats me. i suppose that God was forbidding them ALL spoils of this particular war, instead of just limiting the prohibition to the women and children. isaiah huh? i was thinking this story was in deuteronomy or somewhere before isaiah. |
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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 5, 2004 20:20:48 GMT -5
understood.. sorta.. but i got the main idea The Month of Ramadaan is the month that Al Qur'aan came down to earth. In following the laws of Moses, If the Torah fell to the ground, the whole congragation would fast for 30 days. Thus, when Kalimah Allah(The Word of AllaH) came to eath through the angel Gebriel to Ahmad(Comfortor) aka Mustafa Muhammad Alimen(PBUH), the Islaamic Hebrews(called Muslims today) were odered to fast. To put it short, it is the month of fasting(during day light hours). It is apart of the 5 pillars of Al Islaam |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 6, 2004 8:42:52 GMT -5
I had raised the issue of both Isaiah and Deuteronomy. I read your isaiah response . What are your feelings on Deuteronomy 7th chp. ? for the record, yes i did address the deuteronomy story, it just got confused between me thinking you were referring to it by mistake of the isaiah one. |
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Xavier
Mage
Weallkin
Posts: 365
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Post by Xavier on May 11, 2004 9:53:20 GMT -5
Kah, don't you get it? To Lady C this argument is futile. I have been trying to explain to many of illuzion for years that to argue just to prove a point and not to edify us as Family in GOD is pointless. You do not seem to get that. You are gung ho on a debate instead of the person you are having the debate with. She summed it up by saying GOD did kill but not for a religion and that you and her would not come to terms so let it be. This should end up being about building a relationship with one another as a whole instead of mental masturbation. The Family in the Body of GOD is focused on becoming better people and connection to GOD and one another. We debate, but trying to dissect every nuisance just for debate sake and not for the reason of improving ourselves in the Body of Christ is nothing.
The "atrocities" in the old testament was one of the faces of the every "evolving" I AM. After the manifestation of GOD in human flesh, he Lived out the ways of man by being a man. A New Covenant was Reborn, one of love,compasion, justice, courage,mercy,and peace for man. All who accepted his ways were to become a child in the family of GOD. Ritual and adherence to genetic purity of the "Black" Israelite was done away with. Even though the church of today has become as savage as the synagouge of our Issa's/Jesus's time, those of the Body must know that the church would not be perfect. But hold to what is written on your heart and testing in the fires of Reality.
GOD makes no excuses of his action, He Is. To question LadyC on the actions of Him as if she can redeem GOD is insane. Don't get me wrong, to debate about religion is good to a degree. But do not lose site of our existence today and ways to mend our torn alliances.
I believe that a few of the religions are different branches of the Warriors of GOD with Yeshua the Lord being the King. The branches of the Lord's tree are not the root. Once they have served there purpose, the Tree will be cut down and the Root will Come again with a most glorious fruit.
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 11, 2004 11:54:49 GMT -5
Xavier my brother you should look at the date. This thread had finished days ago. As far as she making her point that she would not have a change of heart, thats kewl. I am not trying to force any beliefs on anyone. However, this is an open thread so people will comment on what she says. If she doesnt want any to comment , she doesnt have to put her stuff out there. She can easily not post. Its kina dishonest to say no one will change your mind yet you publically assert a position. Why would you do that unless you want to convert some to your position. If that is the intention, people will step up to the plate and "try you". Kah, don't you get it? To Lady C this argument is futile. I have been trying to explain to many of illuzion for years that to argue just to prove a point and not to edify us as Family in GOD is pointless. You do not seem to get that. You are gung ho on a debate instead of the person you are having the debate with. She summed it up by saying GOD did kill but not for a religion and that you and her would not come to terms so let it be. This should end up being about building a relationship with one another as a whole instead of mental masturbation. The Family in the Body of GOD is focused on becoming better people and connection to GOD and one another. We debate, but trying to dissect every nuisance just for debate sake and not for the reason of improving ourselves in the Body of Christ is nothing. The "atrocities" in the old testament was one of the faces of the every "evolving" I AM. After the manifestation of GOD in human flesh, he Lived out the ways of man by being a man. A New Covenant was Reborn, one of love,compasion, justice, courage,mercy,and peace for man. All who accepted his ways were to become a child in the family of GOD. Ritual and adherence to genetic purity of the "Black" Israelite was done away with. Even though the church of today has become as savage as the synagouge of our Issa's/Jesus's time, those of the Body must know that the church would not be perfect. But hold to what is written on your heart and testing in the fires of Reality. GOD makes no excuses of his action, He Is. To question LadyC on the actions of Him as if she can redeem GOD is insane. Don't get me wrong, to debate about religion is good to a degree. But do not lose site of our existence today and ways to mend our torn alliances. I believe that a few of the religions are different branches of the Warriors of GOD with Yeshua the Lord being the King. The branches of the Lord's tree are not the root. Once they have served there purpose, the Tree will be cut down and the Root will Come again with a most glorious fruit. |
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Xavier
Mage
Weallkin
Posts: 365
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Post by Xavier on May 11, 2004 16:54:56 GMT -5
How's it going bruh? I know where you are coming from with people putting out their beliefs and others speaking on them. All should be tried by fire if the something good is to be produced from it. My point was that LadyC said that the argument was bearing no fruit and wanting to end it. You continued to question her after her statement. Some people feed on that kind of enviroment but I got the feeling that she really did not want to drag on in the thread. This kind of action has caused many others to leave the site because we where not edifying each other only debating. In this time of turmoil debates that seek only for the argument and not to help us unify or use in our daily lives is insane(my personal opinion).
Also, not everyone that posts a thread uses it to convert someone to there position. Sometimes we just want to be heard what has been given to us. In my thread though, I was trying to focus on the point that we should always seek to build relationship instead of tear them apart. And the route that has been taken by many of this site has driven many people away.
It could be my ignorance but I have always seen Illuzion as a means to unite the very powerful spiritual people of the world. And to use our power for greater change than what we do now. Some knowledge is born out of our debates and jousting but so much more could be accomplished. My post was more than to you but to the nature of this board. We must build coalitions sooner than later. I know that your method is different than mine. in your interaction with people. But I know we can come to a conscensus that Hell has risen-read the seasons/signs of the Day. We must take a stand through action and not just our words.
thank you for hearing me as I have heard you.
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