Was Canaan Cursed for Ham's Sin ??

[CoUrTnEy]

Was Canaan Cursed for Ham's Sin (Genesis 9:24-25)?


Notice the incident: "So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him" (Genesis 9:24). An illicit sexual act is indicated. While Noah was drunk, he had no idea what was occurring.

The difficulty in this verse is one of grammar. Similar problems exist elsewhere in Scripture. Notice, for instance, Exodus 34:28: "So he [Moses] was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." In the Hebrew text, "He wrote" seems to refer to Moses, but Exodus 31:18 and Deuteronomy 9:10 prove that God wrote the Ten Commandments on the stone tables. Thus, modern translations that capitalize pronouns that refer to Deity correctly translate this as "He [the LORD] wrote."

Armed with this example, we can now attempt to solve the problem in Genesis 9 by seeing verse 24 in its context:

Then he [Noah] drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his [Ham's] younger son [or, more properly, youngest son] had done to him. Then he said: "Cursed be Canaan . . ." (verses 21-25).

The situation begins with Noah becoming drunk and being violated ("became uncovered"; see Leviticus 18:6-7). The perpetrator, Canaan, is named in verse 22 as Ham's son. That Ham is Canaan's father is emphasized twice in the account (verses 22, 24). The pronoun "his," then, properly refers back to Ham, not to Noah. Ham was the first on the scene after his son's perverse act, guessed what had happened, and reported it to his brothers to seek counsel about what they should do. Later, when Noah awakes, there is no doubt in his mind that Canaan had defiled him, and he curses him for it.

Finally, was Canaan really the youngest son of Ham? Genesis 10:6 indicates he was: "The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan." Canaan is listed last in order of birth. Canaan was the youngest son of Ham.

Canaan was not punished for something Ham did. Canaan was punished for his own sin.

here is the link to the article:

bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/BQA/k/119

[CoUrTnEy]

I would like to hear ones views on this statement.. and keeping it in the context of the bible

[CoUrTnEy]

bump

[kAHANyAH]

interesting question!!!! Im gonna tackle this when I get home tonite.

[CoUrTnEy]

oakly dokely.. look forward to see what you come up with

kAH said:

interesting question!!!! Im gonna tackle this when I get home tonite.

[kAHANyAH]

I shall look in my magi' cap and see what rabbit I can pull out!

CoUrTnEy said:

oakly dokely.. look forward to see what you come up with

[1dell]

i disagree with this article mainly because it's asking us to do too much work. The structure in the hebrew is not that complex. The what the writer is doing is saying that Logically since Canaan is the YOUNGEST son then it must be him that N'akh is speaking of. But heck EVERYbody is YOUNGER than Shem. That could include anyone. The use in the scripture is Younger NOT YOUNGEST.

That article is reaching. It's not that necessary to do. And I don't recall in the bible someone's grandsons being called their son. Most assuredly after being cursed Canaan wouldn't be considered N'akh's son. Remembering that these chapters were written in hindsight after the fact.

[CoUrTnEy]

let me ask you this 1dell.. what is your opinion on the act that transpired that caused canaan to be cursed?? some suggest ham simply seeing his father naked.. others suggest that he had homosexual sex with him.. what is your take on it?

1dell said:

i disagree with this article mainly because it's asking us to do too much work. The structure in the hebrew is not that complex. The what the writer is doing is saying that Logically since Canaan is the YOUNGEST son then it must be him that N'akh is speaking of. But heck EVERYbody is YOUNGER than Shem. That could include anyone. The use in the scripture is Younger NOT YOUNGEST.

That article is reaching. It's not that necessary to do. And I don't recall in the bible someone's grandsons being called their son. Most assuredly after being cursed Canaan wouldn't be considered N'akh's son. Remembering that these chapters were written in hindsight after the fact.

[CoUrTnEy]

1delly.. hey dear- if you are going to use hebrew words could you pretty please make a "key" for us (me) so those of us who arent versed in hebrew (me) know what you are talkin about ..

[1dell]

Well sweety it's like this, the bible interprets itself. always remember that rule 'mkay? the phrase that scholars wrestle with is "he uncovered his father's nakedness" well the bible defines what this term means:

Vayikra/Leviticus:

Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I [am] the LORD your God.

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I [am] the LORD.

Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover [their] nakedness: I [am] the LORD.

Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she [is] thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it [is] thy father's nakedness.

Lev 18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, [whether she be] born at home, or born abroad, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

Lev 18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs [is] thine own nakedness.

Lev 18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she [is] thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Lev 18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she [is] thy father's near kinswoman.

Lev 18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she [is] thy mother's near kinswoman.

Lev 18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she [is] thine aunt.

Lev 18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she [is] thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Lev 18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it [is] thy brother's nakedness.

Lev 18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; [for] they [are] her near kinswomen: it [is] wickedness.

Sorry for all the verses, just trying to be thorough. So it wasn't a matter of having sex with N'akh NOR lookin at him naked, hell these people took baths together in a nearby lake and thangs, how in the world are they not gonna see each other naked.

Now, we are not TOLD why Canaan is cursed but we can ASSUME based on the data we have been given. Why is the OFFSPRING cursed and not the perso who supposedly did the act? Ohhh, let me stop beating around the bush: Khem/ham uncovered his father's nakedness by sleeping with N'akh's wife by whom Khem had the offspring/son Canaan. Canaan is not CURSED by N'akh, N'akh is just saying that boy IS a curse because he is the offspring of such a union.

There it is, I said it.

CoUrTnEy said:

let me ask you this 1dell.. what is your opinion on the act that transpired that caused canaan to be cursed?? some suggest ham simply seeing his father naked.. others suggest that he had homosexual sex with him.. what is your take on it?

[CoUrTnEy]

ok on another message board i heard that very same comment.. but my question is (as was on the board i saw it on)..how did he suddenly wake up from a drunk and realize that had happened?? and what proof is there that it was his mother that he slept with??

[1dell]

Herein is the problem with the way many read the scriptures. They read 3 verses in succession and think it all happened in one day. This"realization" that came to N'akh could have taken years. We see Shem and Y'fet participating in concealing this matter as to not reveal what happened in order that their father would not be shamed.

By virtue of the fact that I presented all those verses in Leviticus about "uncovering one's nakedness" it should be appearant that He slept with N'akh's wife Nowhere in scripture does "to uncover your father's nakedness" mean to see your father naked or that one has had sex with their own father. BUT we do see somewhere in scripture where "to uncover your father's nakedness" DOES mean to sleep with your father's wife or concubine. Thats what makes the bible fun, that you have to READ the ENTIRE book to gain an innerstanding. Many are too lazy to do this and their scholarship is lacking.

I hope I ansaared all your questions

I will support this view (albeit I have another) until I can no longer support it or until someone can convince me otherwise and then and only then will I reveal what 4th dimension hebrew to reveal the secrets of this text.

CoUrTnEy said:

ok on another message board i heard that very same comment.. but my question is (as was on the board i saw it on)..how did he suddenly wake up from a drunk and realize that had happened?? and what proof is there that it was his mother that he slept with??

[CoUrTnEy]

ok babe im with you on all that.. and I see what you mean.. I think that is the problem with interpreting scripture.. like you said laziness and the inability to use scripture to interpret scripture.. my problem is that I am still not finished reading the bible in it's entirety so when i come to text such as this I dont have the understanding of that "uncovered his nakedness" really means (according to later scripture).. that's where you come in at least until I HAVE read the entire Bible.. thanks for your help it really clears it up for me.. you are like the big brother i neva had

1dell said:

Herein is the problem with the way many read the scriptures. They read 3 verses in succession and think it all happened in one day. This"realization" that came to N'akh could have taken years. We see Shem and Y'fet participating in concealing this matter as to not reveal what happened in order that their father would not be shamed.

By virtue of the fact that I presented all those verses in Leviticus about "uncovering one's nakedness" it should be appearant that He slept with N'akh's wife Nowhere in scripture does "to uncover your father's nakedness" mean to see your father naked or that one has had sex with their own father. BUT we do see somewhere in scripture where "to uncover your father's nakedness" DOES mean to sleep with your father's wife or concubine. Thats what makes the bible fun, that you have to READ the ENTIRE book to gain an innerstanding. Many are too lazy to do this and their scholarship is lacking.

I hope I ansaared all your questions

I will support this view (albeit I have another) until I can no longer support it or until someone can convince me otherwise and then and only then will I reveal what 4th dimension hebrew to reveal the secrets of this text.

[1dell]

Yeah Courty, I'll do my best to do right by you but I too am still a student. I don't have all the ansaars nor am I right 100% of the time. This is one set of versus I need to study some moor. So I tell you what I will argue against myself for a minute.

I'll spend some time for and against myself. It will look weird but feel free to join in.

CoUrTnEy said:

ok babe im with you on all that.. and I see what you mean.. I think that is the problem with interpreting scripture.. like you said laziness and the inability to use scripture to interpret scripture.. my problem is that I am still not finished reading the bible in it's entirety so when i come to text such as this I dont have the understanding of that "uncovered his nakedness" really means (according to later scripture).. that's where you come in at least until I HAVE read the entire Bible.. thanks for your help it really clears it up for me.. you are like the big brother i neva had

[CoUrTnEy]

WILL DO!! Love ya like a play cousin

1dell said:

Yeah Courty, I'll do my best to do right by you but I too am still a student. I don't have all the ansaars nor am I right 100% of the time. This is one set of versus I need to study some moor. So I tell you what I will argue against myself for a minute.

I'll spend some time for and against myself. It will look weird but feel free to join in.