Was Canaan Cursed for Ham's Sin ??

[kAHANyAH]

1dell : "And perhaps I should have mentioned this earlier but that verse in Exodus 20 where it's says "to the 3rd and 4th generation that hate me..." Well the word Generation is not even in that scripture, it's italicized meaning that it's not in the scripture but has been added"


1dell and thats why I said sons = generation. In the hebrew the word "dur" is not there but the hebrew says every third and forth "BEN". Ben is hebrew for son. In essence what the verse is saying, the Lord visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the 3rd and 4th sons. The Translators added "generation" because they understood generation as that of a father's son(s) who brings about a bloodline. Each son is a generation to his father. If a father has 2 sons, he has 2 generations. If he has 3 sons, then he has 3 generations. Etc...

[kAHANyAH]

Aight here's the breakdown on Joseph I promised. Ephraim's children of the third generation is Tahan; progenitor of the tahanites. Tahan was Ephraim's third son. Ephraim had three generations to his name.

Num 26:35 These [are] the sons of Ephraim after their families: of Shuthelah, the family of the Shuthalhites: of Becher, the family of the Bachrites: of Tahan, the family of the Tahanites.

1dell said:

Bro I hear what you are saying but I must protest:

Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

Gen 50:23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third [generation]: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph's knees.

What have we here? Read those scriptures in context please and they will shed moor innerstanding. If we follow your rules for 4th generation then there would be no need for Gen 15:16 to have been written for the "4th generation" would have surely already existed and the iniquity of the amorites would have been fulfilled. Be we know that the iniquity of the Amorites wasn't fulfilled until Moshe annem came on the scene. That was some time after About the time of a 4th generation.

Now the 2nd scripture:

Gen 50:23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third [generation]: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph's knees.

Yoseph, saw his Grandchildren from Efrayim which are concidered by scripture to be the 3rd generation. And that works for me because If Yosef is first generation, Then Efrayim would be 2nd, and Efrayim's offspring would be the 3rd of which is spoken of here.

So again, Canaan is 2nd generation, at best 3rd generation if we count N'akh as 1st generation, but we are speaking of the sins of the father, the father being Khem, so from him Canaan would be the 2nd generation

[1dell]

Hey bro, Key verse:

Gen 25:16 These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

Which means that each name encompasses the entire nation of people. Like I said, these are not 12 generations of Yshma'al. Besides, I've said before generation is moor accuratedly translated as Geneology.

But if you can't get with what I am saying thats all good, I aint changing my mind. It's time to get back to the original thought of Ham and the curse anyway. We've spent way too much time on a dead subject.

kAH said:

i will explain joseph in a seperate posting. I dont want to get all this muddled up. 1dell, the passage tells you what's a generation. Look again and this time pay close attn. to how the passage begins and how it ends. I will highlite it for you so you can get the sense of what its saying...


Gen 25. 12 - 16

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.


The subject in the passage deals explicitly and solely with the generation of ISHMAEL. The passage serves no other purpose save that. Now if you read the end of the passage, it ends off with saying these be the sons of Ismael, by their names, towns, castles and nations - 12 princes over them. 1dell, come on now, its telling you the generations of ismael consisted of 12 nations which came about from 12 of his sons. Dont you see ?

As for the visiting the iniquity every 3rd generation. This doesn't apply to all people. Only to those who god wants to curse or bless. The intermediaries are not part of that law clause.

I will explain the joseph in the nxt post.

[1dell]

actually bro, B'nei is the Ibry to imply the plurality of male offspring, but the word in Shimot 20:5 is Beniym which would include an entire level of offspring thusly including male and female, which is why the translators plugged in the word generation, because of this word usage it is implied.

They saw generations as we saw generations as an entire level of offspring. As you can see I am not wavering from my stance on this so I will leave you with this alternate translation:

"Requiring of the penalties of consequence from the Seed Barers until the 3rd or 4th level of their parentage/progeny"

kAH said:

1dell : "And perhaps I should have mentioned this earlier but that verse in Exodus 20 where it's says "to the 3rd and 4th generation that hate me..." Well the word Generation is not even in that scripture, it's italicized meaning that it's not in the scripture but has been added"


1dell and thats why I said sons = generation. In the hebrew the word "dur" is not there but the hebrew says every third and forth "BEN". Ben is hebrew for son. In essence what the verse is saying, the Lord visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the 3rd and 4th sons. The Translators added "generation" because they understood generation as that of a father's son(s) who brings about a bloodline. Each son is a generation to his father. If a father has 2 sons, he has 2 generations. If he has 3 sons, then he has 3 generations. Etc...

[1dell]

Kah are you serious? Dude, nowhere in scripture does it say that this is who Yosef was refering to. In fact the word is CHILDREN of Efrayim which would include all, not just one son.

But if thats what you want to believe bro, it's all good. I'd rather get back to the part about Ham and Canaan.

kAH said:

Aight here's the breakdown on Joseph I promised. Ephraim's children of the third generation is Tahan; progenitor of the tahanites. Tahan was Ephraim's third son. Ephraim had three generations to his name.

Num 26:35 These [are] the sons of Ephraim after their families: of Shuthelah, the family of the Shuthalhites: of Becher, the family of the Bachrites: of Tahan, the family of the Tahanites.

[kAHANyAH]

Hey let me ask you something bros., how do you measure a generation ?

1dell said:

Hey bro, Key verse:

Gen 25:16 These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

Which means that each name encompasses the entire nation of people. Like I said, these are not 12 generations of Yshma'al. Besides, I've said before generation is moor accuratedly translated as Geneology.

But if you can't get with what I am saying thats all good, I aint changing my mind. It's time to get back to the original thought of Ham and the curse anyway. We've spent way too much time on a dead subject.

[kAHANyAH]

1dell, go re-read the script. it says the third generation of ephraim. You will now have to find out who was ephraim's third generation.

1dell said:

Kah are you serious? Dude, nowhere in scripture does it say that this is who Yosef was refering to. In fact the word is CHILDREN of Efrayim which would include all, not just one son.

But if thats what you want to believe bro, it's all good. I'd rather get back to the part about Ham and Canaan.

[kAHANyAH]

1dell, as I said in a previous post a generation is a son that brings about an entire tribe or nation. If you have 3 sons, then you have three generations or three nations established on earth.

The thing is youre thinking generation has to do wit sons unto grandsons, great grand-sons, great great grand sons, etc... . Biblical generations is how many sons you have to establish a geneology.

1dell said:

actually bro, B'nei is the Ibry to imply the plurality of male offspring, but the word in Shimot 20:5 is Beniym which would include an entire level of offspring thusly including male and female, which is why the translators plugged in the word generation, because of this word usage it is implied.

They saw generations as we saw generations as an entire level of offspring. As you can see I am not wavering from my stance on this so I will leave you with this alternate translation:

"Requiring of the penalties of consequence from the Seed Barers until the 3rd or 4th level of their parentage/progeny"

[1dell]

Well, my dear brother, thats quite simple:

A generation normally encompasses a 20-40 year span. But personally as pertaining to one family, The level of parentage my Grandma and Grandpa would Rank 1st, My mom annem would rank 2nd generation, my cuzzins and me would rank 3rd, my children and my cuzzin's children would rank 4th. I don't know much beyond that. I believe we are all supposed to fit in one century, once that century is complete or when the Granpas and Grandmas die off, then we start over or some ish.

For example, the Indians from India that come here to America and have offspring, they are considered 1st generation Indians.

Bro, I have 6 children, the 6th (Zamir) will be here soon. He will not be the 6th generation. He will be 4th generation of the Wallace Clan. (since Wallace is Scottish/Irish we speak of Clan's versus Tribes)

kAH said:

Hey let me ask you something bros., how do you measure a generation ?

[1dell]

Yeah bro, I innerstood you clearly and I think we are saying similar things, but I am not counting each son as a generation. I am counting that entire brother hood as one generation and the brotherhood that is birthed from that brother hood as the next level of a generation.

And what I am saying in the way of Each son being a nation is that, each nation is not a generation. Because one son would represent one nation, that would to me be interpreted as one son represents and entire bloodline i.e. geneology. I don't blend geneology and generations together. For indeed a geneology is made up of various echolon of generations. It takes a generation to make up a geneology several levels deep.

Ok, now where were we? back to the Ham and Canaan thing?

kAH said:

1dell, as I said in a previous post a generation is a son that brings about an entire tribe or nation. If you have 3 sons, then you have three generations or three nations established on earth.

The thing is youre thinking generation has to do wit sons unto grandsons, great grand-sons, great great grand sons, etc... . Biblical generations is how many sons you have to establish a geneology.

[kAHANyAH]

But this is how I come to understand how scripture uses the term *generation*. A generation is a bloodline established as tribe/nation. Lets take your soon to be born son as an example (btw..., congrats! I aint know your lady was expecting). He will be your sixth son. Now providing he propagates and brings about an entire tribe in your name [clan of the wallaces], that tribe would be known as your 6th generation.

I was trying to show you that in the example passage that equated generations of Ishmael with his 12 princely sons who established nations in his name. Take a look at it again...


Genesis 25,

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

1dell let me ask you something, why in the above passage its referring to the generations of Ishmael as his sons , who by the way were 12 , propagating a nation a piece (12 in number) ?

And this is why I say a son brings about an entire generation for his father thru the propagating of a tribe and/or nation.

Peace

1dell said:

Well, my dear brother, thats quite simple:

A generation normally encompasses a 20-40 year span. But personally as pertaining to one family, The level of parentage my Grandma and Grandpa would Rank 1st, My mom annem would rank 2nd generation, my cuzzins and me would rank 3rd, my children and my cuzzin's children would rank 4th. I don't know much beyond that. I believe we are all supposed to fit in one century, once that century is complete or when the Granpas and Grandmas die off, then we start over or some ish.

For example, the Indians from India that come here to America and have offspring, they are considered 1st generation Indians.

Bro, I have 6 children, the 6th (Zamir) will be here soon. He will not be the 6th generation. He will be 4th generation of the Wallace Clan. (since Wallace is Scottish/Irish we speak of Clan's versus Tribes)

[kAHANyAH]

if we go back to the ham deal we still gone run into a muck! I cannot get over the hurdle wit you on this cause my position on ham is the curse fell upon his forth son whom brought about the house of Ka'nain. The house of Ka'nain is the forth generation. And this would mean the entire tribe of Ka'nain was cursed. The law of visiting iniquities of fathers upon children unto the third and forth generation allowed No'ah to pronounce the curse over Ham.

Do you refute that law was the one No'ah invoked over Ham ? if so youre gonna have to cite what law allowed No'ah to cause the curse.

1dell said:

Yeah bro, I innerstood you clearly and I think we are saying similar things, but I am not counting each son as a generation. I am counting that entire brother hood as one generation and the brotherhood that is birthed from that brother hood as the next level of a generation.

And what I am saying in the way of Each son being a nation is that, each nation is not a generation. Because one son would represent one nation, that would to me be interpreted as one son represents and entire bloodline i.e. geneology. I don't blend geneology and generations together. For indeed a geneology is made up of various echolon of generations. It takes a generation to make up a geneology several levels deep.

Ok, now where were we? back to the Ham and Canaan thing?

[1dell]

Gen 50:23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third [generation]: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph's knees.

AS you can see, the word Generation is in brackets which means we won't find that word in the manuscript. Here is the actual hebrew, I am getting my hebrew from here:

www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1082892465-5791.html#23

I don't have my interlinear on me here at work. But I am actually transcribing the hebrew that is in that white box, not the linkable words that are given with their english equivilant. That doesn't include every word in the passage, nor does it present the word in it's conjugative form it has the word in it's singular form. So it's VERY important that I transcribe from the translation in that white box:

Wa Ira Iosef L' Efrim B'ni Sh'leshiym nem B'ni M'khir Ben M'neshah Iledu al b'rekhi Iosef.

Wa (and) Ira (He saw) Iosef (Joseph) L'Efrim (to Ephraim) B'ni (Sons) Sh'leshiym (Thirds) nem (heir of blood) B'ni (Sons) M'khir (Machir) Ben (son of) M'neshah (Manasseh) Iledu (were begotten) Al b'rekhi (upon the the knees of) Iosef (Joseph)

And He saw Joseph to Ephraim Sons Thirds Heir of Blood Sons Machir son of Manasseh were begotten upon the knees of Joseph.

Keep in mind bro the key word is Sh'leshiym which is plural, Shelesh would be the singular form. This is the hebrew word for 3 or 3rd. Now when pluralized we are speaking of something different and the surrounding words help us to define how this word is used. Since we are speaking of Blood Heirs or Sons, then the translators were helpful in putting the word generation in there. This is a classic case where the italicized word is helpful in cyphering the hebrew because the hebrew does not lend itself to english expressive terms.

kAH said:

1dell, go re-read the script. it says the third generation of ephraim. You will now have to find out who was ephraim's third generation.

[1dell]

Goodness El Toro, you stubborn horned Angus you. bling BLING! I'll make steak outta you yet!

WEll bro this passage is a bit complex I'll tell you why:

The first verse in question:

Gen 25:12 Now these [are] the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:

Notice this verse is on an island by itself and speaks of Yshma'al's parentage: Father Abraham, mother Hagar.

But the very next verse seems a bit isolated by starting off with the word AND:

Gen 25:13 And these [are] the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,...

As if There is a distinction between the too. But I do notice that when speaking of the generations of Yshma'al they never fail to mention his parentage i.e. the first generation. notice that? The sons are mention separate from the generational verse and separate by the word And which implies a new idea for we all know that And is a conjunction combining 2 separate clauses (my english teacher would be proud of a bruva) but I know you wouldn't see it that way El Toro.

Skipping to the final verse in question:

Gen 25:16 These [are] the sons of Ishmael, and these [are] their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

These are the SONS of Yshma'al again I don't see the author making relation to the generational aspect as these are the generation in totality but further goes on to define these sons as: Their names BY their TOWNS, and by their CASTLES. These 12 princes According to their nations. All things being plural it would only make sense (to me) that we speak of Neboyot we are speaking of the nation which would include one leg of the blood line.

Wheww. But check it out bro, the generation of Yshma'al is given in these verses: Abraham: Gen 1/ Yshma'al Gen 2/ his 12 sons: Gen 3.

You makin a bruva work dis mo'nin dayum!

kAH said:

But this is how I come to understand how scripture uses the term *generation*. A generation is a bloodline established as tribe/nation. Lets take your soon to be born son as an example (btw..., congrats! I aint know your lady was expecting). He will be your sixth son. Now providing he propagates and brings about an entire tribe in your name [clan of the wallaces], that tribe would be known as your 6th generation.

I was trying to show you that in the example passage that equated generations of Ishmael with his 12 princely sons who established nations in his name. Take a look at it again...


Genesis 25,

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

1dell let me ask you something, why in the above passage its referring to the generations of Ishmael as his sons , who by the way were 12 , propagating a nation a piece (12 in number) ?

And this is why I say a son brings about an entire generation for his father thru the propagating of a tribe and/or nation.

Peace

[kAHANyAH]

Dude!! that ya remember like a couple of posts ago ? Thats why I said sons = generations. The translators understood a son was to bring about a generation. If it says the sons of the third, they are referrin to the 3rd son bloodline or the GENEOLOGY from the third son. Auugghh!! why no you see this ?

1dell said:

Gen 50:23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third [generation]: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph's knees.

AS you can see, the word Generation is in brackets which means we won't find that word in the manuscript. Here is the actual hebrew, I am getting my hebrew from here:

www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1082892465-5791.html#23

I don't have my interlinear on me here at work. But I am actually transcribing the hebrew that is in that white box, not the linkable words that are given with their english equivilant. That doesn't include every word in the passage, nor does it present the word in it's conjugative form it has the word in it's singular form. So it's VERY important that I transcribe from the translation in that white box:

Wa Ira Iosef L' Efrim B'ni Sh'leshiym nem B'ni M'khir Ben M'neshah Iledu al b'rekhi Iosef.

Wa (and) Ira (He saw) Iosef (Joseph) L'Efrim (to Ephraim) B'ni (Sons) Sh'leshiym (Thirds) nem (heir of blood) B'ni (Sons) M'khir (Machir) Ben (son of) M'neshah (Manasseh) Iledu (were begotten) Al b'rekhi (upon the the knees of) Iosef (Joseph)

And He saw Joseph to Ephraim Sons Thirds Heir of Blood Sons Machir son of Manasseh were begotten upon the knees of Joseph.

Keep in mind bro the key word is Sh'leshiym which is plural, Shelesh would be the singular form. This is the hebrew word for 3 or 3rd. Now when pluralized we are speaking of something different and the surrounding words help us to define how this word is used. Since we are speaking of Blood Heirs or Sons, then the translators were helpful in putting the word generation in there. This is a classic case where the italicized word is helpful in cyphering the hebrew because the hebrew does not lend itself to english expressive terms.