Hebrew Marriage

[SatiyaH]

I was being sarcastic about the bleeding thing

Here you go-"In the beginning, it was not so".
Did Adam and Eve marry?

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,


Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?


Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?


Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

[1dell]

Aw shucks!!!! [wave]let's get ready to ruuuuumbllllleeeeeee[/wave]

I see the stuff you highlight! I love a woman that can knows how to weld a biblical sword!!! touche' shawdy touche'!

Lets look at some things:

What GOD has JOINED together Let NO MAN separate: hmm does that mean that there is a certain way that God JOINS things? If GOD is gonna be doing the joining shouldn'tit be done in a way that he has Sanctioned?

"from the beginning it was not so"

What wasn't so from the beginning? Divorce. Divorce is something that didn't exist. There was no such thing as divorcing your wife but because of the hardness of the hearts of the hebrews there was an amendment.

Jacob is a good example. because he didn't want his first wife he wanted Rachel. But he never divorced her. He kept them both.

[SatiyaH]

BTW 1Dell, I am not debating the issue. I'm trying to learn and see if we can learn from each other. I myself am married under the laws of the state of ohio--but, that deal was originally sealed in our hearts

To practice religious laws, you need to live in a religious community. If you are Hebrew, you should live in a Hebrew community condusive to your lifestlye so that when the issue of "broken" Hebraic laws come up, you have the right "judges" to help sort them out. The Catholics do it--though they get married by state laws, they also do so under church laws--same with their divorces. If you practice Hebrew--you still should abide by the laws of America for you do so when it comes to everything else. You can follow the customs and laws as set up by your faith, but to protect yourselves follow the laws of this land. There are benefits to a legal marriage here, which is why the gays are fighting so hard for their "right" to do it. They made commitments to each other for years--but want the rights to benefit from a legal binding contract.

If you are following Hebrew laws and customs, but not in a communal setting for it--where does your Ishaa have to go when you break that commitment (adultery)? Where do you go when she does? Are you trying to have a Tabernacle in your own home? When I say you--I'm not pointing the finger, but using is as a generalization as "whoever" is doing it...don't mistake this as a bashing, it isn't. I'm sayin the same thing in Islam. We learned that in Ansaar. The purpose of the community was to keep the sanctity of the customs and Islaamic laws. It's hard to be a Muslim at work, or if you the only damn Muslim on your street. I watch the Muslims at the flea markets trying to make Salaat up in their booth with "khafers" walking around gawking. It isn't a condusive environment. Same with the Jew who lives in a neighborhood all to himself trying to fiend a good Kosher hotdog at the grocery.
And, it's wrong as hell to pick and choose one or two laws to follow to the tooth, but break the other 600 plus
I would hate when Ansaars would point the finger at us about the whole "mixing your seed" bull crap, yet they was fornicating, stealing, mixing with those outside of their faith, etc. You cannot pick and choose the laws you want to follow, if you're not all right--you're not right at all.

My humble opinion--if you're living as husband and wife, then you are husband and wife--no ceremony, piece of paper, bloodshed or ring will change that. If you don't wrong without those things, you'll do wrong with them. If you have no intents on making a woman your wife, you should not have sex with her or children by her.

[1dell]

yeah I know sweety, I am just funning yah. That's not even the attitude I am approaching this in at all. I've been just DYING to use that wave text formatting button.

I'll read this and get back atcha.

SatiyaH said:

BTW 1Dell, I am not debating the issue. I'm trying to learn and see if we can learn from each other. I myself am married under the laws of the state of ohio--but, that deal was originally sealed in our hearts

To practice religious laws, you need to live in a religious community. If you are Hebrew, you should live in a Hebrew community condusive to your lifestlye so that when the issue of "broken" Hebraic laws come up, you have the right "judges" to help sort them out. The Catholics do it--though they get married by state laws, they also do so under church laws--same with their divorces. If you practice Hebrew--you still should abide by the laws of America for you do so when it comes to everything else. You can follow the customs and laws as set up by your faith, but to protect yourselves follow the laws of this land. There are benefits to a legal marriage here, which is why the gays are fighting so hard for their "right" to do it. They made commitments to each other for years--but want the rights to benefit from a legal binding contract.

If you are following Hebrew laws and customs, but not in a communal setting for it--where does your Ishaa have to go when you break that commitment (adultery)? Where do you go when she does? Are you trying to have a Tabernacle in your own home? When I say you--I'm not pointing the finger, but using is as a generalization as "whoever" is doing it...don't mistake this as a bashing, it isn't. I'm sayin the same thing in Islam. We learned that in Ansaar. The purpose of the community was to keep the sanctity of the customs and Islaamic laws. It's hard to be a Muslim at work, or if you the only damn Muslim on your street. I watch the Muslims at the flea markets trying to make Salaat up in their booth with "khafers" walking around gawking. It isn't a condusive environment. Same with the Jew who lives in a neighborhood all to himself trying to fiend a good Kosher hotdog at the grocery.
And, it's wrong as hell to pick and choose one or two laws to follow to the tooth, but break the other 600 plus
I would hate when Ansaars would point the finger at us about the whole "mixing your seed" bull crap, yet they was fornicating, stealing, mixing with those outside of their faith, etc. You cannot pick and choose the laws you want to follow, if you're not all right--you're not right at all.

My humble opinion--if you're living as husband and wife, then you are husband and wife--no ceremony, piece of paper, bloodshed or ring will change that. If you don't wrong without those things, you'll do wrong with them. If you have no intents on making a woman your wife, you should not have sex with her or children by her.

[SatiyaH]

1dell said:

yeah I know sweety, I am just funning yah. That's not even the attitude I am approaching this in at all. I've been just DYING to use that wave text formatting button.

I'll read this and get back atcha.

Did you get a chance to hear my south park wavs on the Illuzion and York Files forums? I don't really like the show south park, but the phrases can be so damn cute! I used one for Hathor that said "Hey guys, I am seriously getting pissed off right now" under the Hathor sighting thread started by Ralph.
And, on the debate thread in Illuziond, I got "Let's get ready to ruuuummmbbbllleee"

[1dell]

BTW 1Dell, I am not debating the issue. I'm trying to learn and see if we can learn from each other. I myself am married under the laws of the state of ohio--but, that deal was originally sealed in our hearts

true dat true dat, the only reason I condone recognized public marriage is so UVA mu fuggas know KEEP YO HANDS OFF MY WOMAN. Also a declaration to the parents saying Your daughter who is called by your name oh Father of her, she has now taken upon herself my name and I have become her father in doing so to be the provider of her needs and teachings from this day forward. May I have of your permission to do so? And publically it's recognized. Along with Open accountability to this woman and Family intermingling Because for asuirty the marriage of 2 people is the marriage of a family

To practice religious laws, you need to live in a religious community. If you are Hebrew, you should live in a Hebrew community condusive to your lifestlye so that when the issue of "broken" Hebraic laws come up, you have the right "judges" to help sort them out. The Catholics do it--though they get married by state laws, they also do so under church laws--same with their divorces. If you practice Hebrew--you still should abide by the laws of America for you do so when it comes to everything else. You can follow the customs and laws as set up by your faith, but to protect yourselves follow the laws of this land. There are benefits to a legal marriage here, which is why the gays are fighting so hard for their "right" to do it. They made commitments to each other for years--but want the rights to benefit from a legal binding contract.

I totally agree, but on the gay thing.
No wait <<<******* on the gay thing.

If you are following Hebrew laws and customs, but not in a communal setting for it--where does your Ishaa have to go when you break that commitment (adultery)? Where do you go when she does? Are you trying to have a Tabernacle in your own home? When I say you--I'm not pointing the finger, but using is as a generalization as "whoever" is doing it...don't mistake this as a bashing, it isn't.

oh no Sati I am taking nothing personal. I will volunteer this. It's impossible for a man to commit adultry. Unless he is sleeping with another man's wife. But I see your point

I'm sayin the same thing in Islam. We learned that in Ansaar. The purpose of the community was to keep the sanctity of the customs and Islaamic laws. It's hard to be a Muslim at work, or if you the only damn Muslim on your street. I watch the Muslims at the flea markets trying to make Salaat up in their booth with "khafers" walking around gawking. It isn't a condusive environment. Same with the Jew who lives in a neighborhood all to himself trying to fiend a good Kosher hotdog at the grocery.
And, it's wrong as hell to pick and choose one or two laws to follow to the tooth, but break the other 600 plus

agree

I would hate when Ansaars would point the finger at us about the whole "mixing your seed" bull crap, yet they was fornicating, stealing, mixing with those outside of their faith, etc. You cannot pick and choose the laws you want to follow, if you're not all right--you're not right at all.

yunno!!!!! i hate that ish too!!!

My humble opinion--if you're living as husband and wife, then you are husband and wife--no ceremony, piece of paper, bloodshed or ring will change that. If you don't wrong without those things, you'll do wrong with them. If you have no intents on making a woman your wife, you should not have sex with her or children by her.

I feel you, but because of the things I aforementioned the ceremony provides these things and to do so without the proper handling of ordinaces is stealing to me. If need be I can explain why I say that.

[1dell]

nah not yet. aint got no speakers at work shawdy. Gotta wait til i get to the criznib

SatiyaH said:

Did you get a chance to hear my south park wavs on the Illuzion and York Files forums? I don't really like the show south park, but the phrases can be so damn cute! I used one for Hathor that said "Hey guys, I am seriously getting pissed off right now" under the Hathor sighting thread started by Ralph.
And, on the debate thread in Illuziond, I got "Let's get ready to ruuuummmbbbllleee"

[SatiyaH]

Oh, let me clarify myself on the gay marriage. I am 1000000% against it! I am not anti-gay, or homophobic---personally what they do is they bizness--except when it comes to marriage. It pains me to say it too because not so long ago it was "illegal" for blacks and whites to marry each other, and some have compared it to that--but it isn't the same. Gender marriage totally goes against the laws of nature--and some will say that so does interracial. However--you can interacially marry, produce a child, and that child is still a human being. You get two gays together and the body isn't even designed for them to properly copulate, let alone reproduce.
So, though I am not a bible totin person like that--but using the Adam and Eve story as a story symbolic to nature--they didn't need witnesses to marry, nor a piece of paper, nor a judge, or a priest, or a minister etc.--just "nature" itself. But, if it was Adam and Steve you and I wouldn't even be here today discussing it.
I feel bad that they can commit themselves to each other and not reap the benefits of being "next of kin" or one getting the other's health benefits or social security death benefits etc...but, I still feel, and call it a double standard or something--that there is just something "holy" about a marital union between a man and a woman and I'm not willing to share that with 2 men and 2 woman Marriage is like a gift from god--and is intended to assure that your children have birthrights--but 2 men have yet to produce a baby alone, so they don't need to get married.

[1dell]

I tell you what I'll do is post an ideal marriage.

But Sati, I don't know what your views on IHaWaH are but check it out, He was there. He was the priest that Married them. The witness of angelis hosts were there to recognize them/witnesses. Why do I say angels were there? "let US make man in OUR image" so there were witnesses.

See I believe that each union should be blessed, by parentage and levite (per the hebrew faith)

I will post what should be included in a marriage ceremony.

Then too when a man takes a wife unto himself he removes income from her father's home. He must needs replace that income, hence the dowry. I believe a man should pay a dowry to the father.

hey call me old fashioned. lol

[Zakiah Levanah]

SatiyaH said:

Oh, let me clarify myself on the gay marriage. I am 1000000% against it! I am not anti-gay, or homophobic---personally what they do is they bizness--except when it comes to marriage. It pains me to say it too because not so long ago it was "illegal" for blacks and whites to marry each other, and some have compared it to that--but it isn't the same. Gender marriage totally goes against the laws of nature--and some will say that so does interracial. However--you can interacially marry, produce a child, and that child is still a human being. You get two gays together and the body isn't even designed for them to properly copulate, let alone reproduce.
So, though I am not a bible totin person like that--but using the Adam and Eve story as a story symbolic to nature--they didn't need witnesses to marry, nor a piece of paper, nor a judge, or a priest, or a minister etc.--just "nature" itself. But, if it was Adam and Steve you and I wouldn't even be here today discussing it.
I feel bad that they can commit themselves to each other and not reap the benefits of being "next of kin" or one getting the other's health benefits or social security death benefits etc...but, I still feel, and call it a double standard or something--that there is just something "holy" about a marital union between a man and a woman and I'm not willing to share that with 2 men and 2 woman Marriage is like a gift from god--and is intended to assure that your children have birthrights--but 2 men have yet to produce a baby alone, so they don't need to get married.

I believe there are contractual agreements that can be drawn up and then filed and acknowledged by the court. Making someone your next of kin even a God Parent shoot adopt ya lover if you are trying to get insurance or go to your congree and fight for laws to be passed that acknowledge lovers or common law or anyone as beneficiaries on insurance or health plans. Something legal could be done other then trying to utilize Holy matrimony, which yes is a business proposition but was initially a God given right, just seems wrong.

[SatiyaH]

Since we have different cultures on this board--and well, all over the damn world---aside from Hebrew--what really makes a marriage. Take your religion out of it for a moment--and just deal with morals and moral obligations.

mor·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (môrl, mr-)
adj.
Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.

[1dell]

Ok Morally? Not religiously? Even though marriage is a religious institution?

The difference to me is the same as 2 men who want to be a marine. One goes to bootcamp and graduate. And the other just buys the uniforms and does work outs in his backyard. Sorry it's just not the same.

There is a RIGHT and a WRONG way to do everything.

let me just say what a marriage should have to consider it legit

No priest or politician, no marriage. When I say politician I mean one who forms policy i.e. JOP (justice of the Peace) I would prefer one who is of the cloth.

One who can store the records so the nation can recognize this union and benefit it accordingly. In Ysra'al a married man could be relieved of military duty for a year. If they didn't know the man was married because they could not benefit him. They could not prove his marriage.

WE do not live in a vacuum where everything we do should only matter to us. We live ina world community and what we do affects those around us. Thats why I am into public recognizition of the institution. It's a system of checks and balances. Making sure things are done correctly. not just haphazard out of haste and temptation.

A believe a man should be permission from the father of the bride to marry her. He is removing the father's name and replacing it with his own. He is removing income from the father and replacing the father's role in the woman's life. He is removing a family member but replacing one with himself. Giving his bride's father a son. The family should be made aware to recognize and approve of this. With that comes it's own benefit.

I believe there should be tokens of a union, rings, head wraps, certain clothing or whatever as an outward display that this woman, this man have made vows.

This is a covenant and should not be taken lightly.

I am at work and I got coworkers trying to crack jokes with me, it's so dayum hard to focus on this. I'llhave to get back at this later.

[SatiyaH]

But see--not everybody practices Hebraic law, so I wanted you to step outside of that, even though your thread is about "hebrew marriage". See, you have a wedding, and you have a marrige. The two are different. What does it mean to consumate a marriage?

What if something happend to your nation/hall of records/ etc. and you wanted to make a woman "yours".

And--you never answered me (or i didn't see it) if a man and woman, for all intents and purposes are living as "man and wife". Sharing the household, raising the kids, struggling, etc. are they not in a sense married? I mean, if his friends come around they don't grab her hand and lead her into the bedroom and say 'well, she ain't your wife', cause if they did you'd be ready to kick some azz! They know the two of you are together, though not legally bound. Same when you got a "relationship" with a woman, and another woman comes in to play somehow--if she got any sense about her she isn't gonna by that line the man may throw "we ain't married". She sees--ya'll living together, got a kid together, or got one on the way--she knows "ok, they may not be 'married married' but damn I ain't stupid".
And, like I mentioned earlier--if you got not "intent" on marrying a woman--why live with her and waste a few years of your life and hers? Time is precious--and if you're like "I ain't gonna marry this chick 'cause I don't like my job or she's crazy and gets on my nerves" then stop wasting time. I see that shit soooo often it drives me nuts! I can't for the sake of me see why my brother never married this woman he been with for 15 damn years! What--afraid of commitment? WTF?
Two kids is a commitment. Hell, 1 kid is a commitment.
3, 4, 5, or 15 years invested is a damn commitment.
I got a friend--grew up with her. She got two kids by a man who was married when they met. He said they were seperated. Five years later--he leaves my friend and gets back with his WIFE. That's foul as hell...but she knew better. My other sister gurl, love her so--she got 3 kids and 7 years with a man who "talked marriage". They got into an argument and she said "I'm leaving" and he said "bye" because he already had something he was working on getting with--guess what. He married the "new" chick Now, here my gurl is with these 3 kids and no daddy at home--isn't about the money, she works for the city and gets paid pretty swell and he does his child support--but it's the raising of them that she needs help with. And, poor gurl 31 years old with no life! Men run from women with 3 kids and baby daddy on the side. He still tries to run her house asking "you don't have some man laying up with you while my kids are there". That's foul!

Man, this should be in the family forum
Hebrew isn't my area of knowledge--but this is a good subject.

[1dell]

yeah I know satiyah. I thought I was making my statements universal.

there should be a legal person presiding

there should be family envolvement and approval/blessing

there should be national recognition.

there should be outword tokens of covenant and oath taking.

hmm, I guess i put a lil too much hebraic season on dat huh?

SatiyaH said:

But see--not everybody practices Hebraic law, so I wanted you to step outside of that, even though your thread is about "hebrew marriage". See, you have a wedding, and you have a marrige. The two are different. What does it mean to consumate a marriage?

What if something happend to your nation/hall of records/ etc. and you wanted to make a woman "yours".

And--you never answered me (or i didn't see it) if a man and woman, for all intents and purposes are living as "man and wife". Sharing the household, raising the kids, struggling, etc. are they not in a sense married? I mean, if his friends come around they don't grab her hand and lead her into the bedroom and say 'well, she ain't your wife', cause if they did you'd be ready to kick some azz! They know the two of you are together, though not legally bound. Same when you got a "relationship" with a woman, and another woman comes in to play somehow--if she got any sense about her she isn't gonna by that line the man may throw "we ain't married". She sees--ya'll living together, got a kid together, or got one on the way--she knows "ok, they may not be 'married married' but damn I ain't stupid".
And, like I mentioned earlier--if you got not "intent" on marrying a woman--why live with her and waste a few years of your life and hers? Time is precious--and if you're like "I ain't gonna marry this chick 'cause I don't like my job or she's crazy and gets on my nerves" then stop wasting time. I see that shit soooo often it drives me nuts! I can't for the sake of me see why my brother never married this woman he been with for 15 damn years! What--afraid of commitment? WTF?
Two kids is a commitment. Hell, 1 kid is a commitment.
3, 4, 5, or 15 years invested is a damn commitment.
I got a friend--grew up with her. She got two kids by a man who was married when they met. He said they were seperated. Five years later--he leaves my friend and gets back with his WIFE. That's foul as hell...but she knew better. My other sister gurl, love her so--she got 3 kids and 7 years with a man who "talked marriage". They got into an argument and she said "I'm leaving" and he said "bye" because he already had something he was working on getting with--guess what. He married the "new" chick Now, here my gurl is with these 3 kids and no daddy at home--isn't about the money, she works for the city and gets paid pretty swell and he does his child support--but it's the raising of them that she needs help with. And, poor gurl 31 years old with no life! Men run from women with 3 kids and baby daddy on the side. He still tries to run her house asking "you don't have some man laying up with you while my kids are there". That's foul!

Man, this should be in the family forum
Hebrew isn't my area of knowledge--but this is a good subject.

[1dell]

hEY Sati, people shacking up without humbling themselves to the vow making process are just fucking. Sorry and Ahvi don't approve