It's ok to eat pork?

[SatiyaH]

kAH said:

BTW 1dell, since you dont know. Here is the central tenet of Torah. YOU MUST BE CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH in order to keep any hebraic law. Thats why a hebrew male is circumcised at 8 days old.

If you are not circumcised, you cannot participate in any keeping of hebrew law. Were the colossian men circumcised in the flesh ? Hmmm...



Do you know ?

Are you circumcised? If so, was it just a medical act soon after birth or were your circumcised according to the Hebrew faith? If you were not circumcised according to the Hebrew faith, then you may as well have not be circumcised at all!

If you are not fully following the law, then you may as well have not even been circumcised!

Romans 2:25-29

For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[kAHANyAH]

Youre quoting Paul's words. Paul was a minister unto the goyim [gentiles]. It was expected of him to argue against a people who held the rights to the convenant. Remember these people [jew] were pretty much against the goyim [gentiles] partaking in the inheritance. He had to convince them otherwise.

Paul had to use the best of logic, reasoning and rational he could conjur up to persuade the circumcised jew. They were the ones intrusted with the oracles and the promise. They were the CONTROLLERS OF A RELIGION WHICH HAD THE PROMISE. Its all about control [monopolize], always has always will be. And Paul understood this. He knew he had to get them to accept! this new teaching of his. In doing so, he would position his new movement in the same place as those who were quote/unquote - inheriters of the kingdom of g-d

So what does he come up with ? The covenant was not based in his flesh or the letter but in the spirit. If he could convince them, then he would LEGITIMIZE his ministry.

I GUESS IT WORKED. Christianity is a Booming business .

SatiyaH said:

Are you circumcised? If so, was it just a medical act soon after birth or were your circumcised according to the Hebrew faith? If you were not circumcised according to the Hebrew faith, then you may as well have not be circumcised at all!

If you are not fully following the law, then you may as well have not even been circumcised!

Romans 2:25-29

For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[SatiyaH]

But, it holds a good point. Taking boys born here in America today. If a boy is born, the doctor asks "Do you want him circumcised". If you say yes, it is usually done the same day or the day you leave the hospital. There are no prayers or scriptural quotes. A male or female doc of any faith will do it. So, I then ask you, although the flesh has been cut, is there a covenant with God in force?

[kAHANyAH]

If the circumcision is done for consecration purposes, yes it is enforced. Its already a given if you are born a jew, your circumcision serves as a sign or token of the convenant between G-d and Abraham. The procedure is part of the culture and serves for religious purpose.

Paul's point does not hold weight because he attempts to change the theology of a culture by putting his *spin* on it. A person can rationalize any belief he has as long as he is consistent in the tenets of the belief. That doesnt mean its RIGHT. This was one of Paul's tactics.

Paul had to find a way to get the pagan world in on the game. Lots of money to be made. Lots of people to control. What better way then the doctrine of LIBERTY in the law. Lets face it, everyone wants to be free. Thats innate in human psychie

SatiyaH said:

But, it holds a good point. Taking boys born here in America today. If a boy is born, the doctor asks "Do you want him circumcised". If you say yes, it is usually done the same day or the day you leave the hospital. There are no prayers or scriptural quotes. A male or female doc of any faith will do it. So, I then ask you, although the flesh has been cut, is there a covenant with God in force?

[SatiyaH]

Ok, so if you were born a christian, and circumcised in a hospital by some female doc, and you later convert to Judaism or Hebrew faith are you "circumcised" by Judaic law and part of the covenant?

[kAHANyAH]

There is a law for the stranger who seeks to convert to judaism. Its in leviticus. The status of a convert is not held in the same light as that of one born a jew.

SatiyaH said:

Ok, so if you were born a christian, and circumcised in a hospital by some female doc, and you later convert to Judaism or Hebrew faith are you "circumcised" by Judaic law and part of the covenant?

[1dell]

Dude, Paul ain't the only one that taught that or something similar. Ishua did as well as Ya'aqob/James.

That if you break one law you break them all. That if you put stock in your circumcision as your ticket to salvation, then you are already lost.

Heck Abram was uncircumcised when he received the promises from God. Abram was considered righteous by God before he was circumcised. Thats Paul's argument. Circumcision came before Torah it was a sign of the covenant belonging to Abraham's seed. If you are NOT abraham's seed what need is there to be circumcised?

I don't think you can see the forest for the trees. You want to be so legal and that is so hypocritical of you because you want to hold people by standards that you yourself don't live by. Wanting to condemn Saints and Holy Men for teaching truth. If read the theme behind the entire bible you find this:

Find elected a small people to call his own to tutor them personally and train them and gave them laws that led to immortality. They constantly rebelled against him and rejected him. Then he gave them over to surrounding nations time and time again that they might learn to love him and cherish what they had. Finally he scattered them world-wide with the promise to bring them back. Not only that he was going to make them jealous by allowing GENTILES into the fold.

The disciples thought the same way you did until they saw evidence of the Ru'akh HaQ'desh/Holy Spirit being poured out on the Gentiles. When they saw gentiles prophecy that which they did not know of IHaWaH after they laid hands on them.

You have been a student of this book for so long and to see you overlook the obvious and make the mistakes you are making worries me. You are asking questions that one learned in this book should already know.

kAH said:

Youre quoting Paul's words. Paul was a minister unto the goyim [gentiles]. It was expected of him to argue against a people who held the rights to the convenant. Remember these people [jew] were pretty much against the goyim [gentiles] partaking in the inheritance. He had to convince them otherwise.

Paul had to use the best of logic, reasoning and rational he could conjur up to persuade the circumcised jew. They were the ones intrusted with the oracles and the promise. They were the CONTROLLERS OF A RELIGION WHICH HAD THE PROMISE. Its all about control [monopolize], always has always will be. And Paul understood this. He knew he had to get them to accept! this new teaching of his. In doing so, he would position his new movement in the same place as those who were quote/unquote - inheriters of the kingdom of g-d

So what does he come up with ? The covenant was not based in his flesh or the letter but in the spirit. If he could convince them, then he would LEGITIMIZE his ministry.

I GUESS IT WORKED. Christianity is a Booming business .

[1dell]

You are so right sati! In fact when they asked me if I wanted to circumcise Z'mir I asked if there was a rabbi on duty. They gave him a vitamin K shot because it takes 8 days before the body can produce vitamin K.

Hmmmm! Is that why the hebrews have to wait until the 8th day to circumicise a boy? I bet it is!!!

Vitamin K helps the blood to clot. So if something helps the blood clot then is circumcision ok then even before the 8th day? I bet Kah will say no, because he is stuck on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. And blind to it's true meanings, unless it fits some purpose or ploy of HIS.

SatiyaH said:

But, it holds a good point. Taking boys born here in America today. If a boy is born, the doctor asks "Do you want him circumcised". If you say yes, it is usually done the same day or the day you leave the hospital. There are no prayers or scriptural quotes. A male or female doc of any faith will do it. So, I then ask you, although the flesh has been cut, is there a covenant with God in force?

[1dell]

Jesus Christ Kah! I would recommend reading the bible from cover to cover again! First of all circumcision is only good in the land of Ysra'al ANYWAY. what would it profit a gentile to be circumcised? EVen IHaWaH spoke against circumcision in the book of the prophets saying he would rather they circumcise their HEARTS!!!

What does it profit a gentile to be circumcised huh? To hold them to the Law of Moshe? something they would not be able to keep ANYWAY? Something that NONE of us can keep NOW ANYWAY! Why couldn't they keep ALL of Torah? because Torah is dependant upon a Levitcal system and a TEMPLE AND that you LIVE in the land of YSRA'AL!!!! Do you REALLY think that hebrews in captivity in Babylon, Assyria, and philiistia were able to keep torah when they were in captivity to those nations? HELL NO!!! you betta bet they had they asses working on SAturdays!

Back to the gentiles. They are living hundreds even thousands of miles away from the Temple, how can they follow ALL of torah if they can't get to the temple to sacrifice? How can they when they aint a levite for thousands of miles? they cant! what sense would it make anyway? YOu sitting up there with your dick all cut up and can't even keep all of the law any dayum way! You expect them to make Aliyah/HOly pilgrimage to the temple everything they want to offer a sacrifice or offering to the Most high?

What now? the temple has been demolished! Thats why IHaWaH said I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH making Diviners/Prophets/Healers/Sages that would show his approval of the gentiles.

You talk about me defending something I believe it whether it's truth or not. That a load of bull! thats EXACTLY what you do!!! Have an argument with one leg to stand on and try to contort and twist scripture to get the bible to comply with what you are talking about and if the bible doesn't agree then you say reject that part that doesn't agree. I am too brave for that. I accept ALL that it says and have found harmony in the most recessed of areas.

kAH said:

If the circumcision is done for consecration purposes, yes it is enforced. Its already a given if you are born a jew, your circumcision serves as a sign or token of the convenant between G-d and Abraham. The procedure is part of the culture and serves for religious purpose.

Paul's point does not hold weight because he attempts to change the theology of a culture by putting his *spin* on it. A person can rationalize any belief he has as long as he is consistent in the tenets of the belief. That doesnt mean its RIGHT. This was one of Paul's tactics.

Paul had to find a way to get the pagan world in on the game. Lots of money to be made. Lots of people to control. What better way then the doctrine of LIBERTY in the law. Lets face it, everyone wants to be free. Thats innate in human psychie

[1dell]

And those laws specifically govern that stranger living in the land of Canaan! In fact many laws are meant to be kept IN the land of CANAAN. Tell me, where are the laws for gentiles in other nations who want to convert? Where are those laws?

The books says that the Most High will make converts of Gentiles and even yourself said that all of Canaan would not be able to contain them, so it's safe to say that the Most High also intended for them to stay where they were in their own lands UNTIL the day of IHaWaH when he judges the nations and THEN he will set up a New Yerushalayim on a New planet bringing all the remnant of believers together.

I would advise you to read the book over again from cover to cover, there is a LOT that you are missing out on and that could clear this up.

kAH said:

There is a law for the stranger who seeks to convert to judaism. Its in leviticus. The status of a convert is not held in the same light as that of one born a jew.

[kAHANyAH]

I agree, circumcision is to be kept in the motherland (doesnt mean youre exempt from it in the lands of captivity or the lands of the nations). Listen, this is my point you claimed paul never taught the gentiles they did not have to keep the law as was told them by many teachers of torah. I said, on the contrare Paul was encouraging gentiles to come as they are

Bottom line Paul is a minister unto the goyim and should be put in proper perspective. There are many Y'sraelites of the "new covenant" (such as yourself) that try to claim paul in the original ministry of Y'shua. Thats wrong teaching. Paul taught differently.

1dell said:

Jesus Christ Kah! I would recommend reading the bible from cover to cover again! First of all circumcision is only good in the land of Ysra'al ANYWAY. what would it profit a gentile to be circumcised? EVen IHaWaH spoke against circumcision in the book of the prophets saying he would rather they circumcise their HEARTS!!!

What does it profit a gentile to be circumcised huh? To hold them to the Law of Moshe? something they would not be able to keep ANYWAY? Something that NONE of us can keep NOW ANYWAY! Why couldn't they keep ALL of Torah? because Torah is dependant upon a Levitcal system and a TEMPLE AND that you LIVE in the land of YSRA'AL!!!! Do you REALLY think that hebrews in captivity in Babylon, Assyria, and philiistia were able to keep torah when they were in captivity to those nations? HELL NO!!! you betta bet they had they asses working on SAturdays!

Back to the gentiles. They are living hundreds even thousands of miles away from the Temple, how can they follow ALL of torah if they can't get to the temple to sacrifice? How can they when they aint a levite for thousands of miles? they cant! what sense would it make anyway? YOu sitting up there with your dick all cut up and can't even keep all of the law any dayum way! You expect them to make Aliyah/HOly pilgrimage to the temple everything they want to offer a sacrifice or offering to the Most high?

What now? the temple has been demolished! Thats why IHaWaH said I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH making Diviners/Prophets/Healers/Sages that would show his approval of the gentiles.

You talk about me defending something I believe it whether it's truth or not. That a load of bull! thats EXACTLY what you do!!! Have an argument with one leg to stand on and try to contort and twist scripture to get the bible to comply with what you are talking about and if the bible doesn't agree then you say reject that part that doesn't agree. I am too brave for that. I accept ALL that it says and have found harmony in the most recessed of areas.

[kAHANyAH]

1dell, uhhhh... Daniel ? Remember him ? Dude he and his people were carried away unto babylon. And even in that captivity they performed the keeping of the law to the best of their ability. Daniel was not in Jerusalem but on foreign land. Yet he kept the law, willing to die to just keep it. So while it is true, the law is to be kept in the motherland you arent exempt from it because you're in captivity. Youre suppose to rehearse the righteous acts in the land of drawing water [ref., judges 5:11].

Come on man, you should know this. Re-read the good book again.

1dell said:

And those laws specifically govern that stranger living in the land of Canaan! In fact many laws are meant to be kept IN the land of CANAAN. Tell me, where are the laws for gentiles in other nations who want to convert? Where are those laws?

The books says that the Most High will make converts of Gentiles and even yourself said that all of Canaan would not be able to contain them, so it's safe to say that the Most High also intended for them to stay where they were in their own lands UNTIL the day of IHaWaH when he judges the nations and THEN he will set up a New Yerushalayim on a New planet bringing all the remnant of believers together.

I would advise you to read the book over again from cover to cover, there is a LOT that you are missing out on and that could clear this up.

[1dell]

I'll gladly show you that law for that if you can show me a law for the Torah being kept in another nation without a levitical priesthood and without a temple.

Tell me something kah, When the children of Ysra'al arrived in Canaan after the 40 years in the wilderness, were they circumcised and where they keeping Torah?

Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all [that are] in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all [these] nations [are] uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel [are] uncircumcised in the heart.

The Messiah himself is from the loins of Judah yet that was a nation included in this list there uncircumcised.

There is distinction between keeping Torah in Ysra'al and Keeping Torah outside of Ysra'al can you find THAT law for me?

Oh yeah that's right you did ask for a law didn't you,

Ya'aqob made a law for the gentiles living in the nations

Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Oh boy oh boy. I can't WAIT for you to come back with that argument about how They could not add to the Law or How they could not make up laws or whatever. I am already ready for that one. This aughta be good

kAH said:

No, I understood what you said. You said "those laws" that precluded them from keeping hi holy days because they were uncircumcised. In other words you're saying some laws they cannot keep while uncircumcised but there are other laws they can keep. Well bros., what i am telling you is you cannot keep ANY law while you are uncircumcised. The letter was telling them, dont sweat it [being uncircumcised and not being clean to keep the law] 'cause they dont need to keep them laws anyhow. Thats why it said "let know man JUDGE you". You judge a person by using the law to condemn or pass judgment over them.

A'ight we will continue the azz whoopin when you get home.

When you arrive, break this down for me, what law permits the gentiles to not be circumcised but keep the law.

I shall await your bullshit when you get home.

[xray]TEXT[/xray]

[1dell]

EXACTLY! kah!!! exactly!! You said

And even in that captivity they performed the keeping of the law to the best of their ability. Daniel was not in Jerusalem but on foreign land.

How much moor the gentiles? Daniel was NEVER able to atone for his sins by celebrating Yom Kipur or celebrate passover. He was breaking Torah kah! What holy day could he celebrate without breaking Torah. Hell, was daniel even circumcised do you know?

Daniel's very own name was a babylonian diety! Belteshezzar Lord of the straitened's treasure. EVery time he called the king by name he was breaking Torah because the torah says you shall take not the name of a foreign god on your lips. He learned the sciences of Babylon steeped in paganism. He could not go to the temple, all he could do was keep the dietary laws and civil laws and several others. Hell we don't even know if he was able to keep sabbath! And Daniel was obviously raised in the oracles.

How much moor a gentile whose custom non of this was a part of AND they lived on foreign soil?

It's obvious you do not know the heart of God bro. Just like you said they kept it as best as they could. And thats what the gentiles are commanded to do

and you STILL ignore that Paul taught them Torah in Colossians chapter 3

kAH said:

1dell, uhhhh... Daniel ? Remember him ? Dude he and his people were carried away unto babylon. And even in that captivity they performed the keeping of the law to the best of their ability. Daniel was not in Jerusalem but on foreign land. Yet he kept the law, willing to die to just keep it. So while it is true, the law is to be kept in the motherland you arent exempt from it because you're in captivity. Youre suppose to rehearse the righteous acts in the land of drawing water [ref., judges 5:11].

Come on man, you should know this. Re-read the good book again.

[kAHANyAH]

Come on 1dell - do you read the history mang! Here is the scripture on the children after the 40 yr. period in the wilderness...

• Jos 5:5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people [that were] born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, [them] they had not circumcised.
  
• Jos 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people [that were] men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
  
• Jos 5:7 And their children, [whom] he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way

Does that answer your question ? LOL!!

Off to your nxt point...

You say how is a nation suppose to keep the law if there is no temple ? Dude! you can do better then this. Thats why peeps like PAUL!! A *supposed* hebrew of the tribe of benjamin was suppose to appoint levite priests in those lands of the goyim where the ministry was set up. Temples were to be built (strike this, I mispoke). Outter courts of worship (what we call churchs) were to be built to facilitate places of worship for the gentiles.

1dell said:

I'll gladly show you that law for that if you can show me a law for the Torah being kept in another nation without a levitical priesthood and without a temple.

Tell me something kah, When the children of Ysra'al arrived in Canaan after the 40 years in the wilderness, were they circumcised and where they keeping Torah?

Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all [that are] in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all [these] nations [are] uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel [are] uncircumcised in the heart.

The Messiah himself is from the loins of Judah yet that was a nation included in this list there uncircumcised.

There is distinction between keeping Torah in Ysra'al and Keeping Torah outside of Ysra'al can you find THAT law for me?

Oh yeah that's right you did ask for a law didn't you,

Ya'aqob made a law for the gentiles living in the nations

Act 15:23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Oh boy oh boy. I can't WAIT for you to come back with that argument about how They could not add to the Law or How they could not make up laws or whatever. I am already ready for that one. This aughta be good