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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 5, 2004 8:36:36 GMT -5
just me having the last word, but still not convinced nor am i tryin to start this debate back up again.. just me being a smartazz  |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 8:40:18 GMT -5
 just me having the last word, but still not convinced nor am i tryin to start this debate back up again.. just me being a smartazz
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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 5, 2004 8:52:49 GMT -5
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 8:54:05 GMT -5
I guess you gotta get the last smiley in too! not quite mon cherie!!  |
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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 5, 2004 9:12:20 GMT -5
 I guess you gotta get the last smiley in too! not quite mon cherie!! |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 5, 2004 9:14:37 GMT -5
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Post by LadyC on May 7, 2004 13:53:31 GMT -5
wrong. the point of the story is
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
the sin for which he was found so wicked and was slain for was GREED. he did not want his brother's inheritance to go to a son that was not his own.
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Post by CoUrTnEy on May 7, 2004 14:22:34 GMT -5
i concur  wrong. the point of the story is 8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also. the sin for which he was found so wicked and was slain for was GREED. he did not want his brother's inheritance to go to a son that was not his own. |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 7, 2004 16:21:51 GMT -5
LadyC, I am not going to re-post the law on this. U can scroll up in the thread and find one of my posts where I informed brother Gamiel on the law pertaining to a man who refuses to raise seed unto his dead brother. He can refuse to raise seed unto his brother's name [there are provisions which need to be met]. If what you are saying were true, the brother could just as easily marry a woman other then the sister-in-law and have a child by her. That child would not be the seed raised on behalf the deceased brother. It would be the biological brother's seed of inheritence. He was not slain for GREED (though that was part of the story). He was slain because he broke a contract he went into; the contract of raising seed unto a deceased brother. Here is the contract he went into... Gen 38.8, And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.A contract of marriage to a sister-in-law to raise seed unto his dead brother. Think of it like this, if Onan was indeed greedy and knowing the marriage unto his sister-in-law meant the child would take on the name of his dead brother and not him, all he had to do was marry a normal woman and produce a child from that union. That child would take on his name. And he would be guiltless before G-d. Peace. wrong. the point of the story is 8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also. the sin for which he was found so wicked and was slain for was GREED. he did not want his brother's inheritance to go to a son that was not his own. |
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Post by LadyC on May 7, 2004 19:01:14 GMT -5
maybe i should have worded it more clearly. it was the motives. he intentionally withdrew preventing tamar from becoming pregnant because he did not want to give his brother an heir. the sin was not in using birth control, the sin was in his motive for using the birth control. that motive was greed, and his greed caused him to disobey the command to impregnate his brother's wife.
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 7, 2004 19:21:13 GMT -5
Try and think of it this way, the forbidden fruit is the instrument by which sin can be commited. The intention of the sinner is to commit the sin. That is his "motive" (using your words); to commit sin. Okay now with the above rule, put the story of Onan in perspective and you will get a clearer picture on how G-d administers judgment... instrument for Sin = Spilling on the ground Sin = breaking the contract of marriage to sister-in-law. Onan's sin was breaking the contract. His intent was to take his sister-in-law as wife but not raise the seed unto his dead brother. We are clear on the intent. Now how did he go about to bring this intent into fulfillment ? By using the instrument for the sin - pulling out and spilling the seed. Now ask yourself how does G-d feel about the instrument for the sin [pulling out, birth control, contraception, condoms, etc...] ? Re-read the story of Adam and Eve and the tree of Knowledge. The tree of knowledge was the instrument for sin by which Adam and Eve could sin. What warning did G-d give Adam about this instrument (tree of knowledge) ? DO NOT EAT IT. Apply this universal law to the story of Onan and you will grasp a more in-depth understanding of G-d's proper judgments to all things that matter within the story of Onan. Onan broke the contract and spilled his seed. G-d shuns on both Acts. The same way G-d shuns upon the eating [intention] of the forbidden fruit and the forbidden fruit [instrument to bring intent into reality]. peace. maybe i should have worded it more clearly. it was the motives. he intentionally withdrew preventing tamar from becoming pregnant because he did not want to give his brother an heir. the sin was not in using birth control, the sin was in his motive for using the birth control. that motive was greed, and his greed caused him to disobey the command to impregnate his brother's wife. |
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Post by LadyC on May 7, 2004 20:33:32 GMT -5
oh, dear kah.... if wine is the vehicle with which one can get drunk, and one chooses to get drunk, is drinking of the wine a sin?
no.
getting drunk is the sin, the desire to get drunk is the motive for the sin.
there is no other place in the entire bible that discusses anything remotely resembling the issue of birth control. you won't change my mind on this, nor will i change yours. but it isn't the spilling of the seed that is a sin, it was the reason he spilled his sin, to prevent giving his brother an heir as he was commanded, and therefore his motive cause an action which was pure defiance.
he greedily tried to prevent his brother from having an heir.
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 7, 2004 21:00:22 GMT -5
Lets use this example u just supplied here. intent - to get drunk sin - drunk instrument for the sin - excess quantity in wine. Get it now ? oh, dear kah.... if wine is the vehicle with which one can get drunk, and one chooses to get drunk, is drinking of the wine a sin? no. getting drunk is the sin, the desire to get drunk is the motive for the sin. there is no other place in the entire bible that discusses anything remotely resembling the issue of birth control. you won't change my mind on this, nor will i change yours. but it isn't the spilling of the seed that is a sin, it was the reason he spilled his sin, to prevent giving his brother an heir as he was commanded, and therefore his motive cause an action which was pure defiance. he greedily tried to prevent his brother from having an heir. |
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Post by LadyC on May 8, 2004 0:14:57 GMT -5
still doesn't make wine a sin.  |
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Post by kAHANyAH on May 8, 2004 6:23:31 GMT -5
and I never said onan's penis was a sin neither. I said the instrument used in his sin was the "withdrawal method" just like the instrument for sin used in your example is "excessive wine". Would you like the scripture on "excess wine" ?  still doesn't make wine a sin. |
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