Locked thread, but I have a question

[BalkisII]

I'm confused as to why it was emphasized that Paul purchased his Roman citizenship, because from what is read in the verse, he was BORN free. It was the comander that was speaking to him, who bought his citizenship -which was very costly back then, and may have been point the comander was making, in wondering how Paul got to be a citizen of Rome?

"Act 22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

Act 22:26 When the centurion heard [that], he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

Act 22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.

Act 22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was [free] born.

Paul Admits to being a Roman. In Acts 22:28 Paul further explains "with a great sum obtained I this freedom." So Paul PURCHASED his roman citizenship and it was a high monetary price to pay for citizenship, which with it came certain benefits within the empire. Paul also mentions that he was born free. Possibly having something to do with is birth in Tarsus/Turkey:"

[1dell]

Thanks Balkis, I appreciate the question, because I forgot about finishing this study. I have too many irons in the fire sometimes. So thanks for bringing me back. I will work on this some moor today.

But I am not quite sure what the question is, Are you asking who purchased his citizenship? I am following the question marks and thats the only one I see. Next to that

It was the comander that was speaking to him, who bought his citizenship -which was very costly back then, and may have been point the comander was making, in wondering how Paul got to be a citizen of Rome?

You make a good point I will unlock that thread, because some may have questions to asked. I originally locked it because too many people were taking that thread as an opportunity to clown dr york or each other. It's not about clowning york because york is really not the one who originated this argument. If I may seem a lil harsh in my rebuttals please know that it's not against york, it's against the Paul Haters altogether. And the original folks who came up with this poor argument in the first place.

I'll get back to putting moor innerG into answering this debate.

[BalkisII]

"Paul Admits to being a Roman. In Acts 22:28 Paul further explains "with a great sum obtained I this freedom." So Paul PURCHASED his roman citizenship and it was a high monetary price to pay for citizenship,..."


Sorry if I was not clear the first time. The above statement is what was confusing, when it say that it was Paul who bought his citizenship.

[1dell]

oH OK, Now I see it,

Well depending on how this is translated it appears that the guard is saying that He (the guard) purchased a roman citizenship. Then you could translate it another way that PAUL is saying that He (paul) purchased a roman citizenship. Then we wrestle with Paul saying "but I was born...." Now see the word "free" (in my bible it says "a citizen" I am using the New King James Version) is not in the manuscript. It's word the translators added. In the bible it should appear italicized, those italicized words in scripture mean they were words that were added to give clarity or help a language comply to english wording structure.

So neither the word "Free" nor "a citizen" appear in the manuscript from which this was translated. Meaning that all Paul said was "I was born" the translators are assuming Paul means he was born a citizen.

It's funny, because Rome is a city to be a Roman means to be an Italian from Rome. LOL. WE know that Paul was born in Tarsus/Turkey indeed within the empire. So unless you were born in Rome, how could you be considered a Roman? My question is can an Italian be considered a Roman?

In lieu of what Paul said it could very well mean that Since he is Jew that was born in Tarsus, he could have been born in to a purchased citizenship. His Father could have very well purchased citizenship for his Family while Paul was young and then moved to Yrushalayim. Since Paul actually grew up in Ysra'al and was a disciple of G'malial. I hope this makes sense.

[BalkisII]

I too am using a New King James version (The Nelson Study Bible), and they suggested that "possibly Paul's father or grandfather had bought their citizenship, which the result was Paul was BORN a Roman".

So In that verse it IS the commander that is stating that he had to buy his citenship.

Also, I found this link which might be helpful.


www.ualberta.ca/~csmackay/CLASS_378/Citizenship.html

in part "....Claudius was postumously criticized for selling citizenship, and this presumably refers to graft on the part of his friendmen. It is hard to judge how accurate this charge was, though strangely enough a military tribune who learns that St. Paul had been born a Roman citizen comments that he had had to buy his own..."

[BalkisII]

This is another site that I found concerning Paul's birthpalce.


www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000427.htm


Tarsus
Tarsus was the capital city of the Roman province of Cilicia from 72 A.D. (see Ancient Empires - Rome). Before then it was a major linen and lumbering center during the time of the Greeks (see Ancient Empires - Greece and The Seleucids), and before that it was the seat of the provincial governor during the time of the Persians (Ancient Empires - Persia). Tarsus was known for its wealth and for its great schools which are said to have rivalled Athens and Alexandria. Located in what is today southern Turkey, it was situated adjacent to the Cydnus River, about 10 miles north of The Mediterranean Sea.
Tarsus is mentioned by name only 5 times in The Bible, all in relation to the apostle Paul who was born there.

"Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus [see On The Road To Damascus]. And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying." (Acts 9:8-11 RSV)

"But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared to them how on the road he had seen The Lord, who spoke to Him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. So he went in and out among them at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of The Lord. And he spoke and disputed against the Hellenists; but they were seeking to kill him. And when the brethren knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him off to Tarsus. So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was built up." (Acts 9:27-31 RSV)

"News of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad; and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to The Lord with steadfast purpose; for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a large company was added to the Lord. So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians." (Acts 11:22-26 RSV)

"Paul replied, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city; I beg you, let me speak to the people." And when he had given him leave, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, saying: "Brethren and fathers, hear the defense which I now make before you." And when they heard that he addressed them in the Hebrew language, they were the more quiet. And he said: "I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, educated according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as you all are this day. I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, as the high priest and the whole council of elders bear me witness [see Stephen and Martyrs]. From them I received letters to the brethren, and I journeyed to Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished. "As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?' And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus of Nazareth Whom you are persecuting.'" (Acts 21:39-22:8 RSV)

Fact Finder: Who accompanied Paul/Saul on his first missionary journey?
Acts 13:2
See also:
Paul's First Missionary Journey
Paul's Second Missionary Journey
Paul's Third Missionary Journey
Paul In Athens
Paul's Journey To Rome
Paul In Rome


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[1dell]

BalkisII, I am still not sure as to what you are saying? Are you saying that I am wrong in this? Thats why I included that if translated another way it would appear that Paul was born into a purchased citizenship. This is the line where the Christian scholars have differed. I am of the latter school of thought. Which is why I emphasized it. I am not all that pleased with the translation.

BalkisII said:

I too am using a New King James version (The Nelson Study Bible), and they suggested that "possibly Paul's father or grandfather had bought their citizenship, which the result was Paul was BORN a Roman".

So In that verse it IS the commander that is stating that he had to buy his citenship.

Also, I found this link which might be helpful.


www.ualberta.ca/~csmackay/CLASS_378/Citizenship.html

in part "....Claudius was postumously criticized for selling citizenship, and this presumably refers to graft on the part of his friendmen. It is hard to judge how accurate this charge was, though strangely enough a military tribune who learns that St. Paul had been born a Roman citizen comments that he had had to buy his own..."

[BalkisII]

1dell,

The only thing that promted the post was this statement "So Paul PURCHASED his roman citizenship " .

However it is all clear, thank you.

1dell said:

BalkisII, I am still not sure as to what you are saying? Are you saying that I am wrong in this? Thats why I included that if translated another way it would appear that Paul was born into a purchased citizenship. This is the line where the Christian scholars have differed. I am of the latter school of thought. Which is why I emphasized it. I am not all that pleased with the translation.