What about other religions?

[Zakiah Levanah]

CoUrTnEy said:

Paul’s conclusion is that the heathen are never without a witness to the presence and personality of God.

Thats my point, that if they so choose they can live righteously without the knowledge of Messiah, as did Abaraham, ect. Most of the time one with a discerning spirit will know truth when they hear it, so on that note I will have to believe that all the righteous will receive messiah one way or another.

[CoUrTnEy]

I hear what you are saying, and point is taken. I will also say this - all that glitters isn't gold. (boy oh boy i love me some cliches lol). I read something just now and had to show you:

"In the end, we must leave this matter in God's keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ."

The answer is - we won't know for sure, we must have faith that whatever is God's plan, it will be right and just.

Levanah said:

The buddist thing i didn't get it from the passage just the "assumption", that a vegetarian who doesn't lust for meat, has respect for the earth and is concerned with more devine things would appear more Christ like.
I also agree that these people may not have a place in heaven. But I think the meek shall inherit the earth. According to revelations & the book of daniel there will be a many nations here during the Messianic age and it will be the job of the remnant to minister to them.

[Zakiah Levanah]

CoUrTnEy said:

I hear what you are saying, and point is taken. I will also say this - all that glitters isn't gold. (boy oh boy i love me some cliches lol). I read something just now and had to show you:

"In the end, we must leave this matter in God's keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ."

The answer is - we won't know for sure, we must have faith that whatever is God's plan, it will be right and just.

Interesting that you just read that because that thought just came to me (in another way) as I typed the end of my previous response. Coincidence, i think not!
I agree!

[CoUrTnEy]

What I think this is saying is that they have been exposed to God in some way or another - therefore there is no one that has no knowlege of God. It's what they do with this knowlege that matters. Also, Abraham didn't know WHO the messiah was, but had faith that He would come and save the world. I agree that people will receive the messiah in different ways - but really my arguement was that there isn't more than one messiah - Jesus is the messiah.


Perhaps this is just a case of simply misunderstanding each other's thoughts.


[quote author=Levanah
link=board=christ&thread=1097107463&start=15#1 date=1097285497]
Thats my point, that if they so choose they can live righteously without the knowledge of Messiah, as did Abaraham, ect. Most of the time one with a discerning spirit will know truth when they hear it, so on that note I will have to believe that all the righteous will receive messiah one way or another.

[/quote]

[Zakiah Levanah]

CoUrTnEy said:

What I think this is saying is that they have been exposed to God in some way or another - therefore there is no one that has no knowlege of God. It's what they do with this knowlege that matters. Also, Abraham didn't know WHO the messiah was, but had faith that He would come and save the world. I agree that people will receive the messiah in different ways - but really my arguement was that there isn't more than one messiah - Jesus is the messiah.


Perhaps this is just a case of simply misunderstanding each other's thoughts.

My problem is I talk around alot of stuff and since I rarely say anything in regards to Christianity or the bible, you don't have a feel for me yet.
Basically my point was that if God is revealed to people one way or another and they do accept him then they don't need to be saved. Pagan nations have come to God before the messiah came (Abraham is a prime example) Be it the sun, your growing garden or the poor righteous teacher on the corner, he has his way of getting to us. According to Moshe his law is on our hearts.
About Abraham, he didn't know who the messiah was but he was able to find the Most High, probably through the way Paul describes.
I believe God will recognize you as one of his people (according to your deeds) no matter what you coin yourself. This is just my faith, no righteous man/ woman left behind lol. I have faith in God to be just and I pray that my small view of things can accept the outcome. YUNNO :pra7ing
Like you said we have to have faith that everyone will have a chance to know of the messiah.
I even think some will have the chance to know on the day he comes, and those worthy of that blessing will get it.

[1dell]

Good Points Courtney. I'll address them one by one.

---

The way I understand it is that the end of the world will not come until every ear has heard of Jesus Christ. I am not certain on the specific passage.

If you can find that passage I'd appreciate it. I used to think that back in the days when I was just getting into christianity but for some reason I no longer agree with that from some studies I have done. But thats not to say it's not true, I would like to see that passage so I can judge for myself in lieu of the surrounding scriptures.

So in other words, everyone will have had the opportunity to accept the Lord Jesus as their Savior before the end of time. So there will be no one condemmed for simply not hearing of Jesus and his Word - because they will have all had the same opportunity as we have.

When I did an overhaul of my doctrine I realized that the ONLY way that was possible was if there was a such thing as reincarnation. See there are some people on this planet that exist who have never been approached by a missionary team or had the gospel preached to them. And they have members that are dying monthly. They died without knowing Ishua or having had him preached to them. Now, the ONLY way for that "everyone will have an opportunity to accept Jesus before the end of the world comes" statement could be made true is if God has that person come back to earth for another life in a location where he could hear the gospel. And according to Christianity, "A man is appointed once to day, and then the judgment" Meaning you only get one life, there is supposedly no reincarnation [i[Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [/i][/b]

I dont have a pastor by the way - I still haven't found a church I am comfortable in. Let me restate something also. I was saying Christianity was preverted, and what i actually meant was Judaism and the Bible more specifically. Of course Christianity (the real biblical Christianity) was the "Judaism for Gentiles".. at least this is my take on it.

not a bad take by the way. pretty accurate if I may say so myself. I never thought of it that way. And you are correct.

And as far as Jesus only coming for the lost sheep of israel - it is also my understanding the israel isn't just determined by race, but once you gain salvation thru accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior - you become a part of that tribe. I hope I am speaking clearly and coherantly - my bible skills and such still need to be fine tuned

TEchnically Ysra'al are those who are of the seed of Ya'aqob ben Ytzkhak (Jacob son of Isaac) So it is indeed a race of peoples. Christians want to water that down so they can find loop wholes to contort the scriptures. And Yes what you speak of is called grafting in the scriptures Paul speaks of being grafted into the olive tree and bringing forth fruit. I innerstand you completely and you've done a fine job.

I am familiar with the doctrine that the christians teach concerning this salvation. But see, Salvation is not predicated upon knowing Jesus because if that was the case then those who were never exposed to Jesus would be out of luck and thats not how God operates because thats not fair at all. Paul speaks very clearly about this matter in Romans chapter 2

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Rom 2:18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

What I am saying is that the jews are held accountable by their laws and customs and they must deal directly with Messiah. The gentiles have no such accountablilty and if they chose to then fine. But when it all boils down it's about conduct and behavior and keeping of laws. Christians don't want to hear that, they think the law has been done away with. Nothing could be further from the truth. Paul teaches that when the anti-christ comes he will teach lawlessness. And from what I have seen of Christianity it leads astray because it teaches lawlessness, that there is no law and that all we need do is believe. Belief is not good enough.

There will be those who will do miracles and and heal people and then on that last day approach messiah:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This shows that even those who KNOW messiah and have accepted Ishua as such will not even be safe. It's about BEHAVIOR. because you can see why he told them to depart. Because they worked INIQUITY.

[1dell]

Ok again here were see the narrow scope and focus of the christians. Yeah this person is pointing out scriptures in the BIBLE or better yet the T'nakh. That was a book by the Hebrews for the hebrews. and those who were slaves of the hebrews or who volunteerily joined the common wealth of Ysra'al. But what of the rest of the world who weren't "fortunate" enough to have a levitical priesthood or didn't have a tabernacle or temple where these writings were kept?

And not EVERYONE in Ysra'al had a bible so how could they look up scripture? I mean the literacy rate was atrocious. We need to stop looking at the past thru a rear view mirror because them folk didn't live like we live. American is a country with one of the most highest Literacy rates in the world. There are STILL countries in the world where the literacy rates are in the single digits. To this DAY. How much moor back then.

But my point is this is fine and dandy for Ysra'al but Ysra'al wasn't the only country on the globe. The other nations didn't have a bible or these prophecies spoken to them. The only way the Magi new about Ishua was because of Daniel's influence in Babylon/persia otherwise there would have been no wisemen in the nativity scene.

So again, when it comes to the entire WORLD receiving salvation, Ishua would be an unfair way to save the ENTIRE world. Since so many of the population have not been exposed to him.

CoUrTnEy said:

Here you go delly:

Faith, but no Savior

But how could the Old Testament saints have been saved when Jesus had not yet died for their sins? The verses alongside answer this question...

-The OT saints KNEW that God would, in His perfect time, provide them with a Messiah -- a King -- to bring salvation from their sins.
-They knew because God told them so! Zech 9.9, Job 19.25-26, Gen 3.15, Gen 22.8, Isa 53.5, et al
-The entire animal-sacrifice system (Exodus & Leviticus) vividly showed the OT saints that God would provide a Redeemer to shed blood in atonement for their sins.
-Heb 11.13 tells us that the OT saints were ASSURED of God's promises to provide a Savior.
Moreover, the OT saints EMBRACED (had faith in) God's promises to provide them a Savior.
In other words, OT saints had faith in Messiah Jesus even before He was born (incarnated).
-When the OT saints died, God put their spirits "in lay-away" so to speak, awaiting final payment of sin's penalty by the promised Messiah!

I hate to cut and paste someones words, but they are much more articulate than I

[1dell]

Again, this is about other religions being false and Ishua being the only savior.

But this person who is giving you this information is only confirming what I have been saying. Even in this post he says Ishua went to the underworld (I would NEVER say Hades because thats a greek doctrine of what Hell is like and it disagrees with scripture) and preached to those being held captive. But here is the thing sweety. First of all Ishua gave a story of 2 men one already in the flames of hell and the other in Abraham's bossom. Which group did he go and preach to? Those in Abraham's bossom I am sure the christians would say. But my question is how did those already in the lake of fire get there? Did they get their by denying Ishua? no. They got there by lawless deeds. Now are the requirements for hell different now? The way you go to hell is by not accepting Ishua? Not, it will be by lawless deeds again.

Then part 2 of my point is this. This person is CLEARLY naming HEBREW PEOPLE. So AGAIN. Ishua came to the Hebrews and those who wished to join the common wealth of Ysra'al. What about the egyptians in the underworld who never heard of Ishua, What about the ancestors of the Zulus who had never heard of Ishua? Did they get leave "hades"? This person who is giving you this information says Old testament saints. Hmm, the saints I read about in the old test were hebrews and children of Abraham. Abraham is not Adam so that means there were those who came before abraham and what about their people? The christian focus is too narrow for me and can't answer all questions with their doctrine.

I mean let even imagine that Ishua went down there and there were pigmies who saw him preaching and people were leaving. I am SURE Pigmies were like "HEY HOLD UP!!! I wanna come" and Ishua would say "well you must believe that I am the coming Messiah that IHaWaH spoke of instructing you thru the sacrificial system" the pigmies would be like "IHaW who? Sacrificial system? We don't have a sacrifical system..." They would want to leave just to get out of hades and NOT because they believed or cherished or longed for messiah. Do you think they would be allowed to leave?

I have thought hard and long about these things and have not found answers in christianity. Tis one of the reason I am now a Ubry M'HaB'rit Khadash / Hebrew of the New covenant

CoUrTnEy said:

Also:

The verses to the left indicate that, during the three-day period that Jesus's body lay in the tomb, His spirit descended into Hades -- the lower parts of the earth...

-The reason Jesus went there was to preach the gospel of His atoning death to the Old Testament saints who had died and were waiting there.
-At last their long wait was over. What rejoicing there must have been!
-When Abraham, Moses, David, Job, and all the other Old Testament saints received the gospel, they simultaneously received Jesus's atonement for their sins.
-When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took with Him the spirits of His beloved Old Testament saints.


Pls reference (in relation to what is mentioned above) the following scripture passages:

Eph 4:8-9
1 Peter 3: 18-10
1 Peter 4:6

Hope this helps - you actually did me a favor by having me research this topic - so thank you

[1dell]

Also too what people fail to real eyes is that There were mini messiahs throughout Ysra'al's history. Messiah merely means One who has been anointed. Each king and prophet was anointed so that would in fact make them technically a Messiah.

For example Paul speaks:

1Cr 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1Cr 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

Moses was the Messiah for the people at that time leading them in the way of righteousness and was their method of salvation. Each prophet coming to that nation instructed them on getting their conduct correct. In reading the old testament, I don't get a sense that these people were awaiting going to heaven or anything like that. I get a sense that they were all expecting to come back to life on an earth without evil and under a nation ruled by IHaWaH himself. And that only those who could obey the rules of His kingdom here and now would be allowed entrance.

See Ishua even showed that believing in him is not necessarily the requirement:

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

The focus is the father and the mission is to get the message out. what is the message, the message is reaccountability to the law. Then again Ishua only preached the gospel to hebrews. Sure romans and canaanites came to him for healing but he only addressed the concerns of his God with his people. He is the shepherd of Ysra'al

Levanah said:

I often had this arguement (not bible based) with my brother. He told me that before the end comes (as you stated in another post) all will know of the messiah.
But "I believe" that if others deem Christianity a western based religion and associate it with the wicked people of the west they should not be held responsible for rejecting the message of messiah from a wicked nation. I have a hard time believing God would punish people for not accepting the messiah under specific circumstances. Since Yeshua came to his own, perhaps an annointed one will come from their own to their own.
I find it hard to believe that the most highs only concern is people coming to him through Christ. Especially if the way they found him was by living like Christ (without his Gospel). Look at Abraham, he came from a nation of pagans and all through Genesis you can tell his seed were getting to know the most high and his ways, yet Abraham was righteous in the eyes of the Most high. There has to be principles (universal laws) of righteousness that are in play with or without messiah.
They are the very thing messiah came to preach about,
when man forgot them and looked onto himself & his ego.
There are some cultures who walk closer to Messiah with out knowing him than the average westernized christian.
In Romans Paul speaks of all men being judged according to there works and the law on their heart.
If one strives for righteousness and practices it daily, the right choice will be apparent in everything.

Look at people who can find God in their surroundings and so worship him in that way( Sun, Moon, Water, plants, kings)
Then we have those men who can only find God in their hands and in their ego. They worship idols, unnatural things, materials. I like the book of Romans, Paul is very learned in the ways of others PAGAN's and he gives a good understanding of how God see's these people.
1dell was reading Romans chapter 1, and from that I was able to understand how A Buddist may walk closer to messiah than a Christian, and how a Christian who "knows' messiah may perish.
Romans 1:17 -32 is good reading.

[1dell]

I agree bro, and thats why I hold the stance that I do. I do not believe that the only way one can come to know God is thru Ishua ben Miriyam. His mission and focus was on reconciliation towards God to gather his lost sheep. Just like each culture had it's own prophet and holy men doing the very same thing. It's all about God and these men and women where instruments used to gather the people back to worship the Most High properly and with correctiveness of conduct. NOt about merely believing in a figure who was to come who had come or who was coming back.

Xavier said:

Not to come across as a non researching leader of Yeshua but all the mysteries of GOD would not be known by man. as the stereotype goes, the Body of Yeshua is not thoroughly learned in biblical scholarship, I have proven myself over the years of knowing many religions and ways of thought with the Way(specificaly the essence of the Gospels and others trains of thought) so this is no cop out. But every question of GOD cannot be answered by Man. 1dell, you have a couple of questions that have dumbfounded saints and scholars alike since the birth and resurrection. All our question will be answered when we are ready. You can read and reread to infer on questions about the dead, judgement, and those who have not heard of Yeshua the Absolute(Jesus the Lord) but just like other scholars a different answer will come about 9 times out ot 10. You must add into your equation that Yeshua knew the Old testament but His ministry was about the here and now and how we treated each other in the context of the Almighty.

You must always remember that the nature of most of the leaders of Yeshua is to connect with GOD and open up other people to GOD through love, compassion, caring, and true fellowship-something that is lacking here and most of the world. This is the reason SOME leaders of Christ do not study for the purpose of debate or "head" knowledge for a connection to GOD. I do for both personally. My mission has been pushed from academic debate more though unto showing the Gifts of the Spirit and the Glory of the Lord.

[1dell]

I agree Courtney and for that christian that you quoted in the first post of this thread to say that all religions other than christianity goes against the wisdom you just stated.

I mean come on now, it was IHaWaH who went to babel and confounded the languages and PURPOSEDLY did what he had to do to cause racial divide. But christians believe that God is not the author of confusion. Well he brought confusion over mankind in scrambling their languages and mixing up their cultures. If you notice the things that makes us each different as tribes of people on this planet are Languages, Races, Cultures and Gods. IHaWaH did that. That is his doing

The christian view has always been if you aint down with christianity then they are wrong. Where as Ishua had a different outlook:

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.

So since we don't really know what the true truth is then we shouldn't be condemning other people's religions. ESPECIALLY when the religions of the world have MOOR in common than they have differences. The overall law and conditions of conduct are VERY similar. Do not steal, do not kill, do not commit adultry, yada yada. Ever 1der why there are the "10" commandments then there are the laws of Moses? The 10 commandments are universal laws that all cultures follow. It's a template for civilization. Where as the law of Moses was a set of laws that set the hebrews apart as a nation and gave them their own unique culture

CoUrTnEy said:

I hear what you are saying, and point is taken. I will also say this - all that glitters isn't gold. (boy oh boy i love me some cliches lol). I read something just now and had to show you:

"In the end, we must leave this matter in God's keeping. He is both just and loving. We can be assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right ."

The answer is - we won't know for sure, we must have faith that whatever is God's plan, it will be right and just.

[CoUrTnEy]

Ok 1dell, let me see if i got this all skraight. You do not believe that salvation is gained thru Jesus Christ? Tell me then how salvation is gained, in your opinion or based on your doctrine. From reading what you have typed I think you are saying salvation is gained thru works and not necessarily faith in Jesus. I have heard this concept from other Christians believe it or not. (by the way, I am not being sarcastic at all, I truly would like to hear what you have to say.

[CoUrTnEy]

don't ask me how but i managed to miss this post. I have never been one to condemn people who believe differently than I do - in my heart. I get a little flustered, confused, distracted by others opinions, but always end up right back where I started - with my own view of things. for me and my family the Bible is the truth and the Word of God. All I can do is try to be the best person I can be, live as Christ like as possible, and hope that my family and I are on the right path. I am certainly not perfect, nor do I believe that God expects us to be. I believe (as any parent) He expects us to do our best and to make him proud. My husband has (on more than one occasion- perhaps one day i will listen) expressed his desire for me to stop leaning on what everyone else thinks and to develope my opinion. I don't think the answer is to cut off my fellowship with fellow believers (including those here on the board), however, I think I need to stay a little more objective in my fellowship and group bible study/discussion. I think its good to keep things in mind, but still rely on God's direction to lead me down the right path.

1dell said:

I agree Courtney and for that christian that you quoted in the first post of this thread to say that all religions other than christianity goes against the wisdom you just stated.

I mean come on now, it was IHaWaH who went to babel and confounded the languages and PURPOSEDLY did what he had to do to cause racial divide. But christians believe that God is not the author of confusion. Well he brought confusion over mankind in scrambling their languages and mixing up their cultures. If you notice the things that makes us each different as tribes of people on this planet are Languages, Races, Cultures and Gods. IHaWaH did that. That is his doing

The christian view has always been if you aint down with christianity then they are wrong. Where as Ishua had a different outlook:

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.

So since we don't really know what the true truth is then we shouldn't be condemning other people's religions. ESPECIALLY when the religions of the world have MOOR in common than they have differences. The overall law and conditions of conduct are VERY similar. Do not steal, do not kill, do not commit adultry, yada yada. Ever 1der why there are the "10" commandments then there are the laws of Moses? The 10 commandments are universal laws that all cultures follow. It's a template for civilization. Where as the law of Moses was a set of laws that set the hebrews apart as a nation and gave them their own unique culture

[CoUrTnEy]

By the way, thank you for your compliments - if that's the right word to use. I admire you for your knowlege and understanding of the word, and also your knowlege of different languages. I hope to continue to study with you and your family, and wish that I could get my husband involved as well. He's not real big on the whole message board thing though, so he may take a little convincing. It is fellowship with you and yours that has kept me here on this board for however many months (should be close to a year or so) I have been here. So often you have helped clear up things for me, or gave a little light where there has been darkness in my understanding. You have also helped me keep from being distracted by other people's ramblings. I truly believe that God has worked thru you to do what you have done and continue to do, and for that you will be blessed.

p.s. that baby your yall's that anav has in her signature. MAN - THAT IS 1DELL ALLLLLL OVA!! You shoudda named that lil sprout JR!!

[1dell]

NO no, what I am saying is Ishua is THE Messiah. He's the big one, and he is for US the Hebrews. Sure others who wish to be engrafted into the Olive Tree that is YSRA'AL must needs do so by coming thru him. When he said "I am the way, the truth and the light. No man cometh to the father but by me" who was he talking to? He was talking to Hebrews. He even said that he came specifically for the Hebrews.

See, It makes more sense when we get rid of words like world. Because like I said before the word world also means land or country. Lets try the difference:

"for God so loved this nation that he gave his only begotten son...."

its meaning change when we take those things into consideration.

Now to answer your question about salvation. Who needs salvation? And salvation from what? Salvation : Deliverence : Rescue. We should really do a study on that word salvation in the bible. because in most of the cases of which it's used in the new testament, it was a present thing not a future thing. Meaning that Salvation from sin wasn't in their minds. They already had a system of atonement for that. They wanted salvation from nations, from enemies, from poverty, all real problems and present situations.

It just doesn't seem that these people were looking forward to a salvation. If anything they needed was to repair their torn covenants with the Most High and Ishua was instrumental in that. They had violated the covenant and Ishua came to repair it so that hebrew and IHaWaH could fellowship once again.

but in the sense of salvation of which I know you mean. I agree with Paul when he said:

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

It's about how you treat your fellow man and how you treat God. Thats why Ishua "condensed" (as christian like to say) the law by saying "Love the Lord with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself for in this is the laws and the prophets in totality."

It's about Law. I don't say works because works to me is another subject altogether. Works of the Law aint the law to me. Because that would include the sacrificing of animals and ceremonies and rituals and thangs of that nature. That don't save anyone but they had faith in those thing that they could save them. It ALL boiled down to law.

Hey it's all good sweety, I don't mind the questions and don't be afraid to put your questions any kinda way. I am thick skinned. I know you come in peace. Even if you get a lil upset. I promise I will not start barking and cursing at you. I reserve my wrath for those ninkumpoops who aint interested in breaking bread, just fightin

CoUrTnEy said:

Ok 1dell, let me see if i got this all skraight. You do not believe that salvation is gained thru Jesus Christ? Tell me then how salvation is gained, in your opinion or based on your doctrine. From reading what you have typed I think you are saying salvation is gained thru works and not necessarily faith in Jesus. I have heard this concept from other Christians believe it or not. (by the way, I am not being sarcastic at all, I truly would like to hear what you have to say.