Were there any disciples at Ishua's trial?

[1dell]

Sunday during our Paltalk Webcast, There was a debate about whether Ishua said he was the Messiah. It was said that He NEVER said "i am the Christ" or never admitted to being the Messiah. Anyway Scriptures where brougth forth to prove otherwise.

In truth it's a lie because Ishua DID say the words "I am the Christ" out of his mouth TECHNICALLY:

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

TECHNICALLY he said it. But not in the context to prove our point BUT he DID say it! Anyway, there are other scriptures where HE DOES ADMIT that he is the Christ and one particular incident was brought up that I must bring clarity to for those who were present who may have been led astray. I realized that I didn't rebut that comment out of having 2 opponents talking at the same time and presenting a plethora of comments. I got distracted and forget to retract and would like to take the opportunity to do so now.

Here is the scripture in question:

Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

We see where Ishua answers plainly I AM, when asked the question is he Christ.

Now the rebuttal was that it was impossible to record this accurately because Mark wasn't present at the trial nor were any of his other disciples.

In fact the person who rebutted this did so incorrectly and said that this was a conversation betwixt Pontius Pilate and Ishua, that was incorrect, it was betwixt Ishua and the high priest. Once this person was corrected they then said that there were no Disciples present at his trial before the High Priest. Oh how wrong they were:

Jhn 18:15 And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and [so did] another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.

Jhn 18:16 But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.

Jhn 18:17 Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also [one] of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.

Jhn 18:18 And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself.

Here we see that there are AT LEAST 2 disciples present at the trial where Ishua is conversing with the High Priest! One being Kefa or Peter, Who is identified and this is where Kefa denies Messiah 3 times!

Now the enemy of the scripture's next tactic will be to attack the author of the gospel. Mark. Lets take a look into a mini study of Markus:

His name is Mark. Marcus was a Roman name, and a very common one, and yet we have no reason to think, but that he was by birth a Jew; but as Saul, when he went among the nations, took the Roman name of Paul, so he of Mark, his Jewish name perhaps being Mardocai; so Grotius. We read of John whose surname was Mark, sister’s son to Barnabas, whom Paul was displeased with (Acts 15:37, 38), but afterward had a great kindness for, and not only ordered the churches to receive him (Col. 4:10), but sent for him to be his assistant, with this encomium, He is profitable to me for the ministry (2 Tim. 4:11); and he reckons him among his fellow-labourers, Philemon 24. We read of Marcus whom Peter calls his son, he having been an instrument of his conversion (1 Pt. 5:13); whether that was the same with the other, and, if not, which of them was the penman of this gospel, is altogether uncertain. It is a tradition very current among the ancients, that St. Mark wrote this gospel under the direction of St. Peter, and that it was confirmed by his authority; so Hieron.

hmmm so it is purported that Markus, wrote the gospel under the direction of Kefa/Peter, one of the disciples present at the Trial of Messiah.

Once again, I rest my case. I would that this pathetic display of juvenille-like scholarship not even touching the varsity level would discourage those who make their careers of hating the scriptures in community be discouraged to continue. But we know for acertainty that they will do so again. I would that they would preoccupy themselves with moor constructive vices that would yield weightier results than proving they are out of their leagues when it comes to the scriptures. But my dear yoke-fellows, they will not. For it is easier the hate and debase a thing (albeit it incorrectly) than it is to study it thoroughly. But in doing so they bring shame upon themselves!

1dell has spoken!

[CoUrTnEy]

AMEN BROTHER!! PREACH ON 1DELL PREACH ON !! Naw.. for real though. i hear ya and i am behind u 100%

[kAHANyAH]

HOld on a sec 1dell, i gotta bust out my dictionary to look up some of those 10 buck words you be using and then! can I respond to you post!!

[CoUrTnEy]

yo 1dell.. check this out- got this info from www.studylight.org .. this pertains to that part about why didnt jesus actually come out and say he's the christ.. so here's the info:

Jesus did not openly claim to be the Messiah, even to John his effective herald. He told the demons to be quiet because they knew who he was (Mark 1:34, 3:11-12). In Matthew 8:1-4, 9:30, 12:15-16, 16:20, 17:9 Jesus commands people, even his disciples, to continue to veil his identity. This policy is sometimes known as the hidden, secret Messiah or particularly in Mark's gospel, the Messianic Secret (see, e.g., tektonics.org/secretmess.html, www.total.net/~pennyo/secret.html, users.ox.ac.uk/~itss0038/Mark%20Classes.htm), attributed to the German biblical scholar William Wrede who wrote about it 100 years ago at the turn of the twentieth century.

Yet, to a faithful Jew, Jesus' life was full of Messianic hints in deeds, words and self-titling. This served to elicit faith and perhaps, too, to not fall foul of Roman laws by declaring himself another king or God. So there was maybe an element of political expediency in offering only hints at his identity rather than declaring himself God and King. Nevertheless, he didn't deny who he was but agreed with any that called him Messiah, saying "it is as you say" (Matthew 26:64 // Mark 14:61-62) or to the Samaritan woman at the well, "I who speak to you am He" (John 4:25-26). It appears that Jesus may have discouraged unauthorised declarations of his nature, as with the demons, or the man healed, instead sent to the proper authorities. Part of Jewish tradition was that only God could announce the Messiah, as indeed he did, as the voice from heaven saying, "This is my Son".

For Jesus, in Hebrew thought, "the things which you hear and see" is effectively the same as saying who he was. To say and to do were meant to be the same. Hence Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees that they didn't do what they said, and that his disciples were to copy their words but not their behaviour (Matthew 23:3):


"Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do"

Jesus forgave a paralytic's sins and the crowd thought it blasphemous as only God could forgive sin (Matthew 9:2-6). Yet Jesus regarded saying the words "you are forgiven" as no harder or easier than "arise and walk" and promptly healed the man, that they might know that the Son of Man has power on earth. In fact, Son of Man was Jesus' preferred title, not Son of God or Messiah, but the Son of Man, a divine-like figure straight out of Daniel (Daniel 7:13).

In his own way, Jesus did not keep his nature a secret. He revealed it through words and actions not empty declarations. Jesus was telling John that not only was he the Messiah but he was also "doing" the deeds of Messiah – he was the "Coming One", in word and in deed.

[1dell]

Yes Yes, I am in agreeance with this. This is what I was saying in the room, When he would tell people not to disclose this info because as I said there were people there who were under the impression that the Messiah would liberate them from the Roman oppression. Which was not the case. They would have MADE him the King, dethroned Herod and that would have stimulated the Romans and they would have utterly squashed the remnant of Ysra'al.

He did so that he might be able to walk freely amongst the crowds and further his ministry. It's like Michael Jackson showing up at Bob's Big Boy for some dinner and then saying "please tell no one I am here" or else he would get thronged by crowds of people. That way he can walk and teach amonst the people.

Besides that was a shadow of his humility, he didn't come boasting and braggadiciosly stating "I'm Messiah yall, betta recognize!!!"

It's funny because those who say that Ishua never claimed to be messiah seemed to recognize it when someone else does it. For example. the first time we were in the room doing the webcast, someone in there said that York never SAID he was the Messiah, but he certainly implied that he was. It's funny cuz this SAME person was breaking down how York would allude to being the Messiah and how he would put hints out there. It's AMAZING how this person came back the very next week and said that Ishua never claimed or admitted to being the Messiah even though Ishua was dropping mad clues and hints. He could see it in one person but not in the other.

[CoUrTnEy]

I believe that NOTHING happens by chance or accident.. i stumbled across that article and i found it interesting that it was DIRECTLY related to that topic we had discussed in chat.. it put more eloquently in to words what was going thru my head.. to me reading that article was double confirmation of what you had displayed to me in chat (thru the reading and explanation)..

1dell said:

Yes Yes, I am in agreeance with this. This is what I was saying in the room, When he would tell people not to disclose this info because as I said there were people there who were under the impression that the Messiah would liberate them from the Roman oppression. Which was not the case. They would have MADE him the King, dethroned Herod and that would have stimulated the Romans and they would have utterly squashed the remnant of Ysra'al.

He did so that he might be able to walk freely amongst the crowds and further his ministry. It's like Michael Jackson showing up at Bob's Big Boy for some dinner and then saying "please tell no one I am here" or else he would get thronged by crowds of people. That way he can walk and teach amonst the people.

Besides that was a shadow of his humility, he didn't come boasting and braggadiciosly stating "I'm Messiah yall, betta recognize!!!"

It's funny because those who say that Ishua never claimed to be messiah seemed to recognize it when someone else does it. For example. the first time we were in the room doing the webcast, someone in there said that York never SAID he was the Messiah, but he certainly implied that he was. It's funny cuz this SAME person was breaking down how York would allude to being the Messiah and how he would put hints out there. It's AMAZING how this person came back the very next week and said that Ishua never claimed or admitted to being the Messiah even though Ishua was dropping mad clues and hints. He could see it in one person but not in the other.

[CoUrTnEy]

lookie here lookie here.. found another scripture related to this whole "did jesus admit to being christ" thing:

this is from John 4:23:

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he"

[KnaxemDead]

It is unbecoming of the HNIC (1dell) to offer no formal apologies for his invective behavior in paltalk but instead we get onslaught of babbling post to contend with. 1Dell you've expressed a surmounting ignorance on those subjects discussed. Especially the perspectives & circumstances that occasioned the new testaments authors to write it in as they did.
I, Derek had conversation concerning Jesus never proclaiming himself as 'The Messiah which is interpretated as Christ' (Jh 1:41), concured and supported by biblical scholars such as:
Burton L. Mack WHO WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT?: The Making of the Christian Myth.
Along with Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic scholar) author of THE MYTHMAKER: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.
Saying Jesus never admitted to being The Messiah doesn't make me anti-christ, subscriber of Nuwaubu or to how you imply 'I bit off of York'. (Malachi Z. York). Actually Courtney herself confirmed it in her recent post 'this pertains to that part about why didnt jesus actually come out and say he's the christ.. ' she gives a link to website that has no affliation to those mention above. Yet consistent with all other biblical researchers and scholars as to Jesus not admitting he was Christ.

'Jesus did not openly claim to be the Messiah'.

www.studylight.org
Courtney I am right but your so reluctant on believing Jesus is Christ than to accept the truth he wasn't but he himself didn't claim it. You want to believe Jesus hinted off that he was Messiah, yet he didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies. It was a deliberate attempt by New Testament writers to make it appear as he did.
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? Here are a few examples that the Bible says The Real Messiah will:

• A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-2 .
  
• B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
• C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
• D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Torah sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

It won't take The Real Messiah another lifetime to make it right. "He (Real Messiah) will not cease or be crushed until he has made it right (judgement) in the earth" (Isaiah 42:4). Translated by Derek Hodge

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Authorized King James Version

Yet this is what 1dell has to say about Jesus Christ of 2,000 years ago.
"When he would tell people not to disclose this info (Jesus is Messiah) because as I said there were people there who were under the impression that the Messiah would liberate them from the Roman oppression. Which was not the case. They would have MADE him the King, dethroned Herod and that would have stimulated the Romans and they would have utterly squashed the remnant of Ysra'al."

1dell When Israel have The Most High (El Elyon) and on his rightside the only begotten son Jesus Christ how could they ROMANS, wait anybody on earth for that matter have crushed the remnant of Israel(Ysra'al)? Rudiment of your argument is based on Jesus being so terrified to tell people and his disciples that he is CHRIST because this might have invoke the ROMANS against him? Don't you see how pathetic your argument is?
In conclusion when Jesus was asked Who he is, he said 'before Abraham I AM' or when answering High Priest in latter hours of his life with 'I AM'. This alluded to him being more than a prophet, more than just the Son of God, more than a MESSIAH. Because 1dell and Courtney have not be initiated, you only assume what it is inferring when Jesus said it. Those Masons in here should know what it alludes to for on almost every degree it's written, it's not until Royal Arch that it's exemplifed.


I AM THAT I AM.
Nuk Pu Nuk.

Derek

[CoUrTnEy]

Derek.. and i think you are missing the point on this-like it said in the post you are referring to from studylight.org.. he may not have said the WORD christ but in many instances he confirmed it in word and deed. I even said in the chat room more than once.. if someone asks me if i am courtney and i say yes- then am i admitting to being courtney?? yes i am.. it's as simple as that.. i may not say my own name, however we both know whats going on.. I believe you and I are at an impass on this issue and we may have to leave it at that.. i was gone when other things went on in the chat room and I dont know what was said.. but i certainly treat others (with differing opinions) as i would want to be treated.

[KnaxemDead]

I acknowledge there being a Jesus (Y'shua) and him having a lineage. Jesus didn't claim to be messiah at all, other than stating 'I AM'. Because Courtney you are not familiar with aramaic's grammatical usage you rely on the English rendition (KJ) which gives a false inference as though he answered the High Priest question that he was Christ. There was a concentrated effort from the beginning by the New Testament writers to manufacture a Messiah,

John 1:41 "He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ."

'Christ' is not in the original aramaic manuscript of John, they deliberatedly added that. As you read on in that same chapter it reads...

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Before Jesus had performed a miracle, and just upon meeting Nathanael having saw him under the fig tree, they immediately called him the SON OF GOD, and KING of ISRAEL. Which is impossiblity because it was Joseph husband of Mary who was direct descendant of King David, not Mary. According to new testament Manuscript Joseph is not the biological father of this Jesus. Anyway Jesus response was...

John 1:50, "Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou?"

Inotherwords, Nathanael believed he was the Son of God, King of Israel on the premise that Jesus merely called him by name. He, Jesus was told by Philip earlier who Nathanael was.
Knowing the circumstances between Romans and the Lost Tribe (Y'sra'al) who wanted so desperatedly to overthrow said government, they fabricated this story about Jesus being The Messiah. When Kingdom of Heaven didn't come to pass, it became displaced as a metaphor, reduced to being in one's heart as oppose to literal place.

[1dell]

Derek Derek Derek! LOL. you come up in here trying to sound all elloquent but that doesn't disquise your lack of scholarship. It was innerstood that the Messiah would Die, Heck even half-assed students would say there must be 2 Messiahs from the prophecies they have read in the T'nakh, you go on to TOTALLY ignore 80% of the other prophecies in the scriptures.

Let's just start with the ones that deal with Ishua, His exact day of death. I'm saying though, it took you almost a week for a comeback and this is how you weak you come? Still talkin that babble stuff. Call it what you want chief. It's all good, the sign of defeat is name calling.

Heck I even left your name out for you protection.

You just totally overlooked the prophecy in Daniel:

Each of the last three verses of the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy foretold events that were to take place relative to both Jerusalem and the Messiah.
Daniel 9:25 foretold the very year He would be anointed and become the Messiah, which occurred exactly as prophesied, in A.D. 27.
Daniel 9:26 foretold that "after the sixty-two weeks (i.e., sometime after 27 A.D.), Messiah shall be cut off" (put to death).
Daniel 9:27 prophesied about the last seven years of the 490 year prophecy, the seven years after 27 A.D., and it explicitly states that "in the middle of the week (the middle of the final 7 years of the prophecy), He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." These phrases–"cut off" and "bring an end to sacrifice and offering"–are direct references to Jesus' death. The "Messiah shall be cut off," put to death, and "bring an end to" the lamb sacrificial system of the Old Testament, "in the middle of" the final 7 years of this prophecy, or three and a half years after 27 A.D., which would be 31 A.D.–the very year Biblical scholars and chronologists have determined that Jesus was crucified!

I mean dayum Derrick if the ish was that flawed it would NEVER had survived this long! We see religions being created every decade that never reach toenail height on the statue of Christianities popularity.

And please keep the secret teaching of the Masons to yourself. I am starting to see why they are secret, because if they were ever let out in the public they would sho nuff be shown to be errant.

I'll be back later with so more prophecies

KnaxemDead said:

It is unbecoming of the HNIC (1dell) to offer no formal apologies for his invective behavior in paltalk but instead we get onslaught of babbling post to contend with. 1Dell you've expressed a surmounting ignorance on those subjects discussed. Especially the perspectives & circumstances that occasioned the new testaments authors to write it in as they did.
I, Derek had conversation concerning Jesus never proclaiming himself as 'The Messiah which is interpretated as Christ' (Jh 1:41), concured and supported by biblical scholars such as:
Burton L. Mack WHO WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT?: The Making of the Christian Myth.
Along with Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic scholar) author of THE MYTHMAKER: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.
Saying Jesus never admitted to being The Messiah doesn't make me anti-christ, subscriber of Nuwaubu or to how you imply 'I bit off of York'. (Malachi Z. York). Actually Courtney herself confirmed it in her recent post 'this pertains to that part about why didnt jesus actually come out and say he's the christ.. ' she gives a link to website that has no affliation to those mention above. Yet consistent with all other biblical researchers and scholars as to Jesus not admitting he was Christ.

'Jesus did not openly claim to be the Messiah'.

www.studylight.org
Courtney I am right but your so reluctant on believing Jesus is Christ than to accept the truth he wasn't but he himself didn't claim it. You want to believe Jesus hinted off that he was Messiah, yet he didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies. It was a deliberate attempt by New Testament writers to make it appear as he did.
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? Here are a few examples that the Bible says The Real Messiah will:

• A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-2 .
  
• B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
• C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
• D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Torah sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

It won't take The Real Messiah another lifetime to make it right. "He (Real Messiah) will not cease or be crushed until he has made it right (judgement) in the earth" (Isaiah 42:4). Translated by Derek Hodge

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Authorized King James Version

Yet this is what 1dell has to say about Jesus Christ of 2,000 years ago.
"When he would tell people not to disclose this info (Jesus is Messiah) because as I said there were people there who were under the impression that the Messiah would liberate them from the Roman oppression. Which was not the case. They would have MADE him the King, dethroned Herod and that would have stimulated the Romans and they would have utterly squashed the remnant of Ysra'al."

1dell When Israel have The Most High (El Elyon) and on his rightside the only begotten son Jesus Christ how could they ROMANS, wait anybody on earth for that matter have crushed the remnant of Israel(Ysra'al)? Rudiment of your argument is based on Jesus being so terrified to tell people and his disciples that he is CHRIST because this might have invoke the ROMANS against him? Don't you see how pathetic your argument is?
In conclusion when Jesus was asked Who he is, he said 'before Abraham I AM' or when answering High Priest in latter hours of his life with 'I AM'. This alluded to him being more than a prophet, more than just the Son of God, more than a MESSIAH. Because 1dell and Courtney have not be initiated, you only assume what it is inferring when Jesus said it. Those Masons in here should know what it alludes to for on almost every degree it's written, it's not until Royal Arch that it's exemplifed.


I AM THAT I AM.
Nuk Pu Nuk.

Derek

[1dell]

I think I see your confusion Derek, I just looked up your refernces, the scriptures you are using. I know what is confusing you, It's the roles the messiah must play.

Not to mention you are quoting scriptures that aren't even related to Messiah at all.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in the book of Ezeki'al 37:26-2 (as you typed) But you failed to take this prophecy back to it's starting point Back to verse 21. Where it talks about what IHaWaH HIMSELF is going to do, and how he will set D'wed/David over as a PRINCE over his people yada yada. I'll give you browny points on that, because it could very well be that Ishua can be considered D'wed. But dayum bro, ain't no time limit on that. No times are given on this one, so who are you to say when it SHOULD happen?

You need to take in ALLLLLLL the prophecies not just a handful but ALLL of them to get the entire picture. And from this brick and brack bull jank you hittin me with it shows you aint got a clue.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Dayum Cuzzin, how the hell is this talking about Messiah? This is IHaWaH talking. He is saying HE will do this, not Messiah


Isaiah 43:5,6

Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Again, where is this a Messianic function? IHaWaH again is speaking about what HE will do. I see how you conveniently left out verse 7:

Isa 43:7 [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Dayum bro, thats a dead give away that this is IHaWaH speaking, Messiah dont be goin around creatin' people.

Isaiah 2:4 SIGH!!!


Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Again not a Messianic prophecy, this is how IHaWaH will manipulate the future to bring this about has nothing to do with Messiah. Dude I guess where you are getting confused is with where it says "he will judge..." Well we find out who HE is back in verse 3 the verse you so conveniently left out "Many people shall come and say 'come and let us go up to the mountain of IHaWaH, to the house of the God of Ya'aqob, HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS...." whose ways? Who will teach? The GOD OF YA'AQOB!"

Now if you are going around thinking that the God of Ya'aqob and Messiah are the same people, then we really got a problem.

What does Zechariah 14:9 have to do with Messiah? NONE of these verses tell about what he is supposed to do when he comes here NOR do they support ANYTHING you are talking about!.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Derek Derek Derek, I think I found out what the problem is, are you sitting here trying to tell me that Whenever you see the word Lord, you are thinkin it's talkin about Messiah? DUDE!!! You should KNOW BETTER!!! Whenever the word LORD appears just like that in all caps in the bible it's REALLY the tetragrammaton!!!!! In Ibry/Hebrew the word is IHWH!!!!! The name of God, NOT Lord as in The Lord Jesus Christ.

man, like I said, you stay in your book and I'll stay in mine and we'll all be happy and we can be friends. I don't need your help in cyphering my book...none whatsoever. I got this chief

KnaxemDead said:

It is unbecoming of the HNIC (1dell) to offer no formal apologies for his invective behavior in paltalk but instead we get onslaught of babbling post to contend with. 1Dell you've expressed a surmounting ignorance on those subjects discussed. Especially the perspectives & circumstances that occasioned the new testaments authors to write it in as they did.
I, Derek had conversation concerning Jesus never proclaiming himself as 'The Messiah which is interpretated as Christ' (Jh 1:41), concured and supported by biblical scholars such as:
Burton L. Mack WHO WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT?: The Making of the Christian Myth.
Along with Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic scholar) author of THE MYTHMAKER: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.
Saying Jesus never admitted to being The Messiah doesn't make me anti-christ, subscriber of Nuwaubu or to how you imply 'I bit off of York'. (Malachi Z. York). Actually Courtney herself confirmed it in her recent post 'this pertains to that part about why didnt jesus actually come out and say he's the christ.. ' she gives a link to website that has no affliation to those mention above. Yet consistent with all other biblical researchers and scholars as to Jesus not admitting he was Christ.

'Jesus did not openly claim to be the Messiah'.

www.studylight.org
Courtney I am right but your so reluctant on believing Jesus is Christ than to accept the truth he wasn't but he himself didn't claim it. You want to believe Jesus hinted off that he was Messiah, yet he didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies. It was a deliberate attempt by New Testament writers to make it appear as he did.
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? Here are a few examples that the Bible says The Real Messiah will:

• A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-2 .
  
• B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
• C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
• D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Torah sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

It won't take The Real Messiah another lifetime to make it right. "He (Real Messiah) will not cease or be crushed until he has made it right (judgement) in the earth" (Isaiah 42:4). Translated by Derek Hodge

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Authorized King James Version

Yet this is what 1dell has to say about Jesus Christ of 2,000 years ago.
"When he would tell people not to disclose this info (Jesus is Messiah) because as I said there were people there who were under the impression that the Messiah would liberate them from the Roman oppression. Which was not the case. They would have MADE him the King, dethroned Herod and that would have stimulated the Romans and they would have utterly squashed the remnant of Ysra'al."

1dell When Israel have The Most High (El Elyon) and on his rightside the only begotten son Jesus Christ how could they ROMANS, wait anybody on earth for that matter have crushed the remnant of Israel(Ysra'al)? Rudiment of your argument is based on Jesus being so terrified to tell people and his disciples that he is CHRIST because this might have invoke the ROMANS against him? Don't you see how pathetic your argument is?
In conclusion when Jesus was asked Who he is, he said 'before Abraham I AM' or when answering High Priest in latter hours of his life with 'I AM'. This alluded to him being more than a prophet, more than just the Son of God, more than a MESSIAH. Because 1dell and Courtney have not be initiated, you only assume what it is inferring when Jesus said it. Those Masons in here should know what it alludes to for on almost every degree it's written, it's not until Royal Arch that it's exemplifed.


I AM THAT I AM.
Nuk Pu Nuk.

Derek

[1dell]

Yo Derek, there are over 300 Messianic Prophecies in the Bible bru, If you like I can post the list and you can work on that. Oughta keep your hands busy for a minute

Just say the word, and it's yours. Hell, or do it yourself. goto google and type in "Messianic Prophecies"

The funny thing about the prophecies is that they give you an overview of the entire story, but ALL the details or the hows and whys. But when you superimpose them over the life of Ishua, it all makes sense.

[KnaxemDead]

There is a glich with several earlier attempts to post on your board, to when I click 'Post', it would say Invalid Email, click to go back, and the entire message would be deleted.

Hopefully this will make it through.
I merely gave a few examples as stated of unfulfilled Messianic Prophecies. Your just oblivious to them all since you implied I ignored 80% of the other (messianic)prophecies in the scriptures. That would be a total of 40 prophecies, later you contradict that statement and said there is over 300. Yet that is all you got from what I wrote. Never addressing the real issues 1dell head on, just diverted chat to how many prophecies I didn't mention. Hopefully you will stop being so vindictive, and let's have an intelligent discussion.
If this is such a senstive subject for you, recalling your invectiveness from paltalk, then I would rather leave it alone and keep my peace.

[1dell]

Derek, I got a question for you, Who do you think is doing the talking in IHawaKHanan 1:41? Do you think that is Ishua talking? I am curious, becuase you are using that verse like it's ammunition for you when in fact it's ammunition for US. Maybe you need a bible with the words of Jesus in red. Because what I think you are doing is saying that it's Ishua talking in verse 21. Because logically it makes absolutely no sense for you to use that verse.

I notice you have a tendency to skip scriptures or not include scriptures so lets get it ALL up in there.

Jhn 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Jhn 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Jhn 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

Jhn 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

Jhn 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

So Andrew told his brother Shimon that he found the Messiah. Why did he call him Messiah? Basically because IHaWaKhanan the Immerser CAll him the Son of God back in verse 34. And For some reason people knew that the Son of God and Messiah were synonomous. I will show you elsewhere that is implied. But I think I see where you are majoring in the minors 1nce again. The fact that the scripture uses the word Messias which is obviously greek, and christ. in the same verse. I guess you are trying to bring to our attention why would they use a word for a word they already have. Well, lets see:

funk it here: www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1078525313-4473.html

see for yourself. All it is is a TRANLITERATION of the word Messiah, the fact that there is an S at the end tells me that. Just as they have done to the names of the prophets Elijah=elias, Moshe=Moses, Jeremiah=jermias, etc. Messiah=Messias, since it is a name. But the author ALSO makes reference to what the name/title means in Greek for the goyim readers of his gospel. The word being Christos (depending on conjugation) meaning to Anoint or one who has been Anointed from the word Chrio. And I know you know this stuff already, so why are we even having this conversation?

Christ not being in the original aramaic manuscript. so what of it? this is the english translation! I can show you PLENTY of words that are italicized that are added to give clarity and provide proper syntax. If the bible was translated word for word, I doubt if it would make any sense to you without those words. The hebrew sentence structure is differnt than ours.

Not is really not even the point since Messias IS in the doggone thing. But back to my point about the Son of God being synonomous with Messiah, lets take a look at a few things:

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

I don't know about you kiddo, but the high priest tore his clothes and accused Ishua of Blasphemy. do you know what Blasphemy is Derek?

Dontchu move a muscle, I'll get the definition for you:

blas·phe·my ( P ) Pronunciation Key (blsf-m)
n. pl. blas·phe·mies

A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.

But back to my original point, why do you think the high priest said to him, tell us if you are Christ, the son of God? hmmm, maybe cuz them terms are synonomous? Oh lawd, to present the study on that would be crippling.

Oh yeah, while I am at it let me ansaar your question about how come God didn't just do away with the roman army and why was Ishua concerned about the roman's destroying the remnant of Isra'al. It's called divine order chief. lol. See the Messiah came the first time to get Ysra'al right. He had to collect his sheep. They are supposed to take this message to the rest of the world. AS a method to deliver them from the judgment that will come upon the earth. Oh boy, thats a study on salvation right there. If you were a student of the book instead of a student of those who claimed to have studied the book but obviously haven't, this would all be appearant to you. All you gotta do i just crack the book open and READ IT!

Ok, if that wasn't enough for you here we go with another verse that proves that the title Son of God and Messiah are synonomous. NOt only that but here is a scripture where Messiah neither denies he is Messiah nor does he tell anyone not to tell that he is

Jhn 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jhn 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Jhn 11:28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.

AGAIN:

Jhn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Dude in one instance you make like the new testament was written by Masons, in the next you make out like John and writters of the gospel are fabricating a Messiah? which is? Can't be both. Wouldn't make sense for someone to have made the entire dayum thing up only to be writing about people who are making the whole entire dayum thing up.

Nah dude you aint getting it. He didn't call his the Son of God because he just called his name and told him where he was before he even saw him. He called him that because only a prophet could do something like that. Not only that if you read earlier in the chapter, IHaWakhanan was sho nuff promoting Ishua as such. That was just confirmation

Please tell me how on EARTH is fabricating a story gonna over throw a Government? lol.

KnaxemDead said:

I acknowledge there being a Jesus (Y'shua) and him having a lineage. Jesus didn't claim to be messiah at all, other than stating 'I AM'. Because Courtney you are not familiar with aramaic's grammatical usage you rely on the English rendition (KJ) which gives a false inference as though he answered the High Priest question that he was Christ. There was a concentrated effort from the beginning by the New Testament writers to manufacture a Messiah,

John 1:41 "He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ."

'Christ' is not in the original aramaic manuscript of John, they deliberatedly added that. As you read on in that same chapter it reads...

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Before Jesus had performed a miracle, and just upon meeting Nathanael having saw him under the fig tree, they immediately called him the SON OF GOD, and KING of ISRAEL. Which is impossiblity because it was Joseph husband of Mary who was direct descendant of King David, not Mary. According to new testament Manuscript Joseph is not the biological father of this Jesus. Anyway Jesus response was...

John 1:50, "Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou?"

Inotherwords, Nathanael believed he was the Son of God, King of Israel on the premise that Jesus merely called him by name. He, Jesus was told by Philip earlier who Nathanael was.
Knowing the circumstances between Romans and the Lost Tribe (Y'sra'al) who wanted so desperatedly to overthrow said government, they fabricated this story about Jesus being The Messiah. When Kingdom of Heaven didn't come to pass, it became displaced as a metaphor, reduced to being in one's heart as oppose to literal place.